 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetfreek
Date: 2004-06-23 20:12
Hi. As some of you may know, I'm a rising senior who is considering being a music major in college. Although I've decided against getting a performance degree (B.M.), I'm planning on double majoring in music and English (thus getting a B.A.). I'm wondering how the music programs are in these colleges:
Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Swarthmore
Amherst
Washington University at St. Louis
Princeton
Yes, I do know that most of these schools are extremely prestigious and difficult to be admitted to, but I want to know how their music programs are before I apply to any of them (and prepare for auditions/tapes). Thanks!!!
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-06-23 20:40
Depends on what you want to get out of the program. For instance, Princeton is on the vanguard of electronic music (think Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center) as is Stanford (CCRMA), but I can't imagine going to either for anything remotely relating to clarinet performance.
You might be well advised to create two lists -- one with programs that would interest you from a performance perspective (great teachers, great ensembles, etc.), and the second with liberal arts/English programs that meet your criteria. Look for the schools that intersect and start there.
Happy hunting.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-06-23 21:41
Keep in mind that with two degrees you'll likely be in school 5-7 years, even with decently full schedules. Not to discourage you (I'm doubling), but just to let you know. Any reason you're not looking at "smaller name" schools (or are you just doing the big ones first)?... especially at more prestigious (and therefore often more competitive and costly) universities, the pressure is that much greater.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarinetfreek
Date: 2004-06-23 22:07
msloss- I don't think electronic music will be of any use to me, honestly. I want music program where I could still continue my clarinet playing, and a good composition would be a plus as well. I think your suggestion of making two lists would help a lot... thanks :-)
Alex- I have decided against getting to degrees; instead, I will just get a Bachelor of Arts, but with two majors, which I could probably finish in 4 years. I have been looking at "smaller name" schools also, but my parents insist on me going to a top tier ivy (if I am accepted, that is), and to them, even Washington U. and Swarthmore are stretches (they don't know the difference between big names and a quality education). Northwestern is also on the top of my list, but chances are slim that I'll be accepted into the music program. (But obviously I didn't put NW on my list in this post, as I already know what kind of music program it has.)
Thanks for your help!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-06-23 23:35
I meant that you're effectively doing two degrees' worth of coursework. Technically, I think I'm getting a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and Music Composition
Ah, the parents-insist-on-name-school situation. I know people that were in that situation. Just keep in mind that there are a LOT of universities that don't have the name recognition of the schools you mentioned but still have top-notch programs and may fit your personal learning style better. If you're completely happy with restricting yourself to "big names," then by all means do. If I was in your situation, though, I'd apply to a few lesser-known places that have programs you like... explore some campuses, talk to people, and see where you feel comfortable. To get your parents off your back, I suppose you could, for the time being, say that they are "fall back" options. When the time comes, then, you'll still have all your options open.
Be sure that you don't kill yourself trying to graduate in 4 years with two majors. Sure, it will look logistically possible on paper, but you may end up cheating yourself of college life and of social opportunities, fun & interesting projects, extra performance groups, etc.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-06-24 00:08
Ivy league
Those academics do deceive
If to a performer you aspire
take it from me
Ivy league training is not for hire
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Author: kenabbott
Date: 2004-06-24 00:49
I know that Harvard has no performance major, although you can study theory there. In terms of providing venues for performance, however, it was great at least it was 20 years ago). Between marching band, jazz band, wind ensemble and pit orchestras, I was always busy.
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-06-24 01:38
Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think that Yale only offers graduate work in Music. No undergraduate program. Strange, but true... I have a friend who went there and I'm pretty sure this is who I heard this from.
Tara
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Author: clarinetfreek
Date: 2004-06-24 02:53
From the Yale music department website:
"Undergraduate Program In Music:
The Department of Music in Yale College is the home of undergraduate music majors as well as the source of course work designed for the non-major with minimal preparation in music. For the music major, the Music Department offers a full-scale humanities-oriented program in the history, theory, and composition of music that is intended to provide an extensive background in the art form for students who will go on to professional careers as composers, performers, or scholars, or who may enter fields in which a solid grounding in music is essential, such as arts management or publishing. The study of musical performance for credit toward the music major and the Bachelor of Arts degree is available by an arrangement between Yale College and the Yale School of Music. Completion of the Bachelor of Arts degree in music is an excellent basis for post-graduate music study. And many students select Music as a humanities major, just as they would, for example, select English or History."
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-06-24 04:20
Okay, Clarinetfreek, thanks for setting me straight!!! I'm obviously thinking of somewhere else, but now I'm gonna go crazy trying to remember where... Hmm... Good luck on all of your college adventures!
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2004-06-24 05:06
Yale has an outstanding music program, both in terms of music scholarship and music performance. In my opinion, it is the strongest of the Ivy's. A few things to keep in mind when applying, though:
1) At Yale there is a "Department of Music" and a "School of Music" that have separate faculties and essentially operate independently of one another. The Department of Music employs professors of music history, theory and computer music. The School of Music employs a faculty similar to what you'd find at a conservatory: professors of violin, tuba, composition, clarinet, etc. As an undergraduate at Yale, the classes that you will take are taught by faculty from the Department of Music. By audition, you may qualify to take lessons from David Shifrin, the clarinet faculty at the School of Music, but there is no gaurantee of acceptance. Most incoming undergraduate clarinetists are assigned to study with a graduate student instead.
2) The undergraduate orchestra at Yale is exceptional, but it is an extra-curricular group. In other words, being in the orchestra won't count toward your degree, even if you are a music major.
3) Yale offers a 5-year combined B.A./M.M. program in which you would earn your B.A. from the Department of Music and your M.M. in clarinet performance from the School of Music. This is a great program, similar to the Columbia/Juilliard 5-year program. Unfortunately, you can't apply for admittance to the program until your junior year of college, meaning it would be risky to base your choice of schools solely around this program.
4) The undergraduate degree in music at Yale is a heavily academic degree. Although a bit lighter, perhaps, than some other majors, it is still a TON of work: reading, score study, analysis, listening. Not to mention practicing your clarinet, which would fall outside your academic work load. Few students who set out to double major at Yale end up doing so in the end. There are so many cool classes and fun extra-curriculars to explore during your four years that many find the demands of a double major to be too restrictive.
Princeton and Harvard also have very fine undergraduate orchestras. I've known players from both schools who have gone on to successful careers as professional orchestral musicians. I think Princeton hires members of the New Jersey Symphony to give private lessons to undergrads and Harvard may have ties to some BSO and NEC people, although I'm not sure what the details of that are.
Post Edited (2004-06-24 05:10)
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-06-25 06:02
Okay, apparently I was thinking of Harvard, with no performance major. Sorry, clarinetfreek- I even confused myself on that one!!!
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2004-06-25 16:27
Tara,
Technically speaking, you were right: there is not a performance major available at Yale for UNDERGRADUATES. The undergraduate program (B.A.) in music offers a "humanities-oriented program in the history, theory, and composition of music." Performance degrees are offered by the School of Music only to master's and doctoral students. Never-the-less, there is overlap between the programs. Undergraduates, for example, may enroll by petition/audition in School of Music classes such as ear training, private lessons, and chamber music.
The bottom line, I would say, is that studying music at Yale is pretty much what you make of it. If you choose to spend your time practicing, playing in orchestra and chamber groups, and attending concerts, you will feel like a performance major. If you choose to spend your time in the library studying your theory and history material, you will feel more like a musicology major.
CPW wrote:
"Those academics do deceive
If to a performer you aspire
take it from me
Ivy league training is not for hire"
Not true. David Howard (bass clarinet in L.A. Phil) and Charlie Neidich both did their undergraduate work at Yale. Richard Stoltzman and Joaquin Valdepenas received master's degrees there. There are other examples available to dispute your claim.
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Author: clarinetfreek
Date: 2004-06-27 16:32
What exactly is an M.M. degree at yale? Is it equivalent to a B.M. in Performance?
And does anyone know how many undergrads usually get to study with Shifrin?
Thanks, everyone.
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-28 05:46
Hi all!
An excellent flautist, Shannon Kelly, who graduated from my school the year before last got admitted to Harvard and is studying music there. I don't know what exact degree she's working for, but she has told me that all of the wind groups there are really no better than those at CU Boulder and UNC here in Colorado. Perhaps somebody can put this in perspective for Clarinetfreek; I don't know how good the groups are at CU or UNC. I do know that UNC has a reportedly excellent music program.
Cheers,
Sean
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
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Author: clarinetfreek
Date: 2004-06-29 05:01
Yes, that would be very helpful, Sean.
Anyone have any useful information they would like to share? Thanks a lot!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-07-05 20:41
Don't even consider Swarthmore. It isn't a music school at all!
Great academic school though, one of the very best. My x-wife attended Swarthmore and played Flute (bio major).
It isn't a place for a serious musician, but if academics are you specialty, it is really good.
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Author: Marge
Date: 2004-07-06 18:05
I'll have to disagree with David Blumberg's opinion of Swarthmore's music program, though I do agree with the part that "It isn't a music school at all." Indeed, it's not intended to be a conservatory-type place. Swarthmore is a very fine liberal arts college (always at or near the top in the US News & World Report lists, if you put any stock in those) with a remarkably fine music department, especially for a school of only about 1400 students. Swat's English Dept. is also excellent, but it is also true that it's hard to find a weak department there.
My direct experience with Swarthmore and music there ended when our second son graduated in 1991, so I may be somewhat out of date. However, I just surfed around the Music (and Dance) Dept.'s website and found that the program seems to be as excellent and comprehensive as it was in the early 90s, and maybe even better. I wonder when David's ex-wife was a student there.
Indeed, the music program came a long way from the 1960s to the mid-80s and early-90s, largely due to major infusions of money as well as commitment. (Swarthmore is VERY well endowed.) If I'm remembering correctly, in the 60s students (and faculty) had to struggle to even get proper credit for certain musical activities. But by the time our son was there, things were very different: a good range of courses and high-quality performing ensembles, good music library, good faculty, and excellent facilities. (A new performing arts center was completed the year he graduated, even though the previous one wasn't very old, but had just become inadequate, given the level of interest and involvement in the performing arts.) There certainly were (and undoubtedly still are) serious musicians there, some of them electing to double-major. Some (esp. string players) had also been accepted at top music schools but decided they wanted a broader education and experience.
Our son never intended to major in music (he majored in English), but wanted to go to a college/university where music was important and where he could participate in high-quality ensembles (both vocal and insrumental) as well as take the occasional music course. I can remember his turning on his heel in the music building of one school he/we visited in the early stages of looking at colleges and interviewing: "I don't think music is very important at this school; let's go." So we did (thinking he was probably right), and that was that for that otherwise seemingly high-quality college.
In his first semester he discovered he was unable to participate in all the ensembles he'd hoped to. He auditioned for, and was accepted for, the orchestra and wind ensemble on the French horn, and as a tenor for the large Swarthmore Chorus and a smaller SATB group. He was somewhat miffed at not making an early instruments group on the recorder, but realized the probable reason when those auditioning were gathering and conversing--virtually all others had studied with someone, while he was self-taught, though he had participated in a competent group in high school.
However, each of the four groups he wanted to participate in rehearsed one night a week for something like 2-1/2 hours. He also wanted to take voice lessons, which would also require time for lessons and practice. In the end, because he had a work-study job and was a conscientious student who works quite deliberately/slowly (he graduated with honors), he concluded there weren't enough hours in the week for everything and so, alas, dropped the instrumental groups in favor of the vocal ones and the voice lessons.
After his first year he had scholarships for his voice lessons (which he took on-campus), even though he was not a music major (or minor). In fact, we parents were quite amazed by the generous scholarships at Swarthmore for lessons, not only from teachers who are part of the regular or adjunct faculty, but also for teachers of the student's choice in the Philadelphia area. In fact, some scholarships even paid for the student's transportation to/from Philadelphia (on the suburban train whose station is adjacent to the campus).
So I'd suggest reading the website info about Swarthmore's music scholarships very thoroughly, and ask lots of questions besides. It may be that no clarinet teacher gives lessons on campus (though I don't know this), but there are certainly numerous excellent options in Philadelphia.
You don't say, clarinetfreek, what part of the country you live in, but if at all possible, visit the colleges you are most seriously considering WHEN SCHOOL IS IN SESSION. Stay overnight in a dorm, attend some classes and rehearsals, and talk to as many relevant faculty members (and music students) as possible. Our son ended up visiting Swarthmore three times, twice overnight (we are fairly close), and did the overnight thing at two other colleges, before deciding on Swat (turning down Princeton, Williams, Duke, and several others of similar calibre).
Good luck!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-07-06 18:54
I know the program and have for many years. And I have had several students attend the college. I've played for them in various concert events as well, and their Orchestra Conductor was my 2nd Clarinetist in the Riverside Symphonia.
Even when my wife went there the music program was good but it wasn't stellar like a few of the other schools mentioned in the question.
It doesn't begin to compare musically to Yale, nor even Harvard. As for Clarinet Teachers in the area - I lived 3 miles away from Swarthmore for 15 years and am still local to it.
David Blumberg
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-07-06 18:58
btw - she graduated in 1984 from Swarthmore.
o, and when I was in High School - I took Clarinet Lessons from the teacher there (in their music school).
When I have a freshman Clarinetist (non music major) come into a College and take Principal Clarinet in their Orchestra, I have to wonder if there is any competition at all........
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