 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-06-17 03:39
Just saw the Tchaik 4 performance on PBS by the San Francisco Symphony. Having never seen Michael Tilson Thomas in action before, I was surprised to see he's one of those conductors (at least to my eyes) who's very hard to follow. I didn't see the "behind the scenes" program, so he may be very precise in rehearsal, but what's with the conductors who don't clearly signal the beat? And how do you follow these guys?
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Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-06-17 04:34
Follow the drummer?? Seriously, I have had the pleasure of working with some excellent conductors, and then there are the others. Sometimes you just have to count like h... and ignore the guy with the stick.
Having said "follow the drummer" I actually saw that once on television. Don't remember the orchestra or the conductor but the piece was from the Spartacus Suite, the March I believe, not sure. Anyhow the conductor started them off then walked off the stage. The snare drum (just to be precise, the snare was off for this piece) had a relentless part which carried the orchestra for the whole piece. Conductor walked on stage in time for the cut off, then brought the snare drummer out to the front for a bow. Probably the only time in her life she got to take a bow. It was quite remarkable.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-06-17 11:14
I have seen Tilson Thomas once, conducting the LSO in Beethoven's 3rd. They dealt with it by playing it as they wished. He ended up following them.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-17 13:22
Well said, Graham, at least partially true, I had some difficulty following also, quite a "lag" in the beat?, and Yes, MTT following the solo players and Conc/Master perhaps. Having played under a [very few] highly-talented conductors, we players must accommodate and ?sometimes teach? what to do. I hope better, more-experienced symp. musicians will go beyond my poor descriptions, please. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-17 14:14
Strangely enough Tchaik 4th is on our orchestra's program for next season. I have a few comments which may make a bit of sense to some and less for others....most conductors do alot more than just move their arms. In fact, alot of the time the internal feel they have for a piece has to be sometimes projected mentally to the players. Karajan and Szell did alot more than just stick work, after carefully rehearsing an orchestra they would then tend to allow the players a bit more freedom by relaxing some of the more forced regular beating. Instead, the eseence of their greatness was just as much as what they did not conduct.
Many years ago I had the great pleasure of performing under Rafael Kubelik in Mahler and Brahms and a few things which I really enjoyed were....his ability to shift gears(tempi) and at the same time allow the music to flow. Kubelik had great eyes and communicated alot of intention with actual eye to eye communication with his players...these even included 2cd desk people as well who have alot to play which is integral to a successful performance.
Kubelik was also a supremely gifted in the area of knowing just how far to take a phrase...he used alot of subtle rubato which is maybe not so popular today with the new literalist attitude of much classical music making. Another element in the greatness of his conducting is you always knew what he wanted to do with the phrasing and dynamics. He always was very clear and yet their was a good deal of room to relax because of this...so when a conductor really knows his "stuff" it is always a joy to play...
As to the question....players have to develop skills related to following conductors as much as they would learning to play the instrument. In fact, I know alot of very fine clarinetists who just have little patience for following any conductors...this is too bad because this attitude prevents them from really getting something from the fine conductors there are.
As to learning I think all earnest players have to learn everyday...so following a conductor is an essential element in having good ensemble skills....you also need to trust the conductor and that is where things are tricky...lesser conductors tend to change tempos unknowingly, rush phrases, indicate incorrect dynamics, have sloppy downbeats...and generally seem nervous...which does not help any group play at peak.
David Dow
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-06-17 14:20
Wow -- never found MTT's direction to be that elusive watching him, nor do I know anybody who has played for him who described similar problems. He is certainly a more emotive conductor (remember who his mentor is) and there is a lot of information in his gestures. Orchestra is not marching band -- we don't need somebody up there in white gloves pounding out a beat. The presumption at that level is that the musicians can count to four.
I don't think I would count Thomas among the ranks of the baton-impaired, particularly given the stellar results he gets. Lord knows there are many more incompetent conductors out there, including those with crystal clear beats but no soul or musicianship.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-17 14:42
I think the comment about "anticipating" the conductor is right on the mark --- so much of ensemble playing (in any type of group, not just the symphony orchestra) is listening to all the other players pretty much constantly, and fitting yourself into the overall musical picture --- essentially independent of what the conductor is or is not communicating. This is not to say that a player should ignore the conductor --- unless the conductor is truly incompetent, in which case good musicians WILL ignore him/her. This philosophy of listening to the other musicians is especially vital in concerti or other pieces having a soloist -- each player must listen to and stay right with the soloist, as well as heeding the conductor (yes, these goals are sometimes mutually exclusive! --- this is one of the many challenges musicians have to deal with) -- because if the conductor is not right with the soloist as so often happens, and the orchestra is only following the conductor and is ignoring the soloist, then the total time lag/discrepancy between the band and the soloist can be excruciating. As with everything in music, following the conductor involves full-time 'intelligent compromise' and keen listening by every player.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-06-17 15:37
Most conductors have terrible baton technique and could not effectively lead any ensemble without the opportunity to explain their musical interpretation and conducting directives in rehearsals leading up to the concert. During the 70s & 80s, I played clarinet in the lab ensemble for our universities series of college band directors workshops, under the direction of Dr Fred Fennel (Eastman Wind Ensemble fame). The participants would conduct and Fennel would cretique them on points of interpretation and commucication through improved baton and left hand directive (conducting). And did these college level professionals ever need help!! You would not believe the diversity of problems these college wind ensemble conductors brought to these sessions--their own egos not withstanding. One southern university conductor insisted on conducting with dark glasses on. Another small college conductor from Pennsylvania had not even studied the scores he had submitted to conduct--Fennell threw him out on the conference. Anothers idea of conducting subito piano was to suddenly crouch down and disappear behind his music stand--he would then pop up like a jack-in-the-box for fortissimo (probably watched to many Jerry Lewis conducting routines as a kid). Few of these college band and orchestra directors possessed clear and easily followed baton technique--like we all learned from the Max Rudolph method book on conducting--and most probably relyed more on verbal expanations during their home school rehearsals than on non-verbal conducting technique alone.
What was most interesting was when Dr Fennell took the podium to conduct us at the end of the session, he broke all of his own conducting rules (turning into a "windmill" with large grandious gestures that were quite unclear to us) and had to resort to telling us what his various conducting motions were trying to accomplish.
Bottom line?? Band and Orchestral donductors--you can't live with them, but also, you can't live without them. Basic rule--when then stop waving their arms, stop playing and take your bow (for making them look good on the podium and a personal musical job "well done")
Lawrence Welks old license plate, "A 1 N A 2"
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-17 15:41
A conductor who practices wild arm-wavings may seem incomprehensible, with whippings of the baton after each beat making it impossible to tell where you are in a measure unless you happen to be glancing at the right instant. The solution may be simple; instead of just watching arm and hand motions; watch the conductor. Works so much better. YMMV.
On the other end of the spectrum, check a video of Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin. Frequently he made only the tiniest movements at all, yet he got an amazing result with his musicians.
Regards,
John
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-06-17 15:59
Unfortunately the LSO definitely were not being guided by Tilson Thomas whether through eyes, baton, and whatever. Far from anticipating his beat, he scythed ahead of them, as they rattled on at their own slower pace, and had to readjust to what they did. The give away was that it was an unusual concert. The first half was TT at a piano lecturing us on what made the piece work. This was a very good lecture, and the exerpts played on the piano gave promise of an inspiring performance in the second half with the orchestra. But it was all too obvious how the tempi differed from his piano exerpts, and generally, they were slower. It was a tedious, routine effort. He just could not get his vision through to the players.
Hear the same players with Colin Davis or Previn, and that is a different matter.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-06-17 16:04
Once a conductor accidentally gave a huge downbeat in a Haydn symphony, exactly in the place where the whole orchestra has a bars rest. One of the musicians said "Oh, so THAT'S what a conductor sounds like!"
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-06-17 16:37
The role of a maestro is never quite clear.
Would he be missed, if he failed to appear?
One school says yes; another says no.
Meanwhile all maestros are rolling in dough!
How come I did not pursue that career?!
Henry
Post Edited (2004-06-17 23:30)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-17 16:49
In rhyming your skill is so keen,
that Henry, I'm sure the 'long green'
will come to you shortly
for writing adroitly
and not from the conducting scene.....
f f goings
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-17 17:41
AH, Vunderbahr, Youse poets say it so much better than we prose[aic] types, TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2004-06-17 20:25
You have to find the beat. Sometimes it's in the conductor's thumb, or his little finger, or wrist, or even his elbow. It's almost never at the point of the baton where it's supposed to be. Usually someone in the orchestra spots it and passes the word around.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-17 22:17
Fortunately, some conductors are very good indeed --- I'll never forget a subtle incident a few years ago when Col. Arnold Gabriel (retired former Air Force Band director) guest-conducted our wind ensemble --- we were performing a piece he hadn't even had a chance to rehearse once with us --- during the piece he gave me a little bass clarinet cue a bar early, and WHILE CONTINUING TO CONDUCT realized his error, and gave me a little smile and a very slight nod, as I had waited for the proper time to come in with my lick --- all this communication was transmitted with the eyes, as he continued to conduct the rest of the ensemble with the baton (flawlessly!) throughout. Now THAT's a conductor!
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-06-17 23:26
You don't follow, you anticipate...
Was this really a serious comment?
Surely if it's (or was...) possible to anticipate Abbado, Rattle, Kubelik, Karajan, Haitink, Davis then anyone of us could stand up and do a conducting performance as well as they can/could.
I think not, besides it's impossible for 60-80 players to all anticipate in the same way. The performance would be dire.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-17 23:32
Most, not all conductors, use the top part of the swoop (very technical) as their prime hot spot for their beats ... this is usually the top part of the ellipse. There is a word for it, but since I turned 40 my brain turned it self off (without my approval), my eyesight deteriorated and things started to head south ... most vexing.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-06-18 01:39
I'd say that anticipating is often perfectly fine... you see how quickly their hand is moving toward the magic spot. If you wait to see it actually get there, then the time it takes you to process that information and get the air through your horn makes you late.
It's anticipating by knowing that "If I start thinking about moving now, then when I actually move, we'll be right together", not anticipating by "I think he's going to speed up, so I'll just speed up and we'll meet"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-06-18 02:27
As we all learned in Conducting 101:
Every time beating gesture has 3 parts -
The preparation
The ictus
The reflex (or rebound)
The problem with many conductors is that they merge 2 (or all 3) of the above cited gestures ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-06-18 12:47
"You don't follow, you anticipate...
Was this really a serious comment?"
Yes. Sorry if you did not understand it but the inference was that every conductor has his/her own style and many times you have to play under them for awhile until you can anticipate their moves.
A true story: A guy loses his wife after 60 years of marriage and becomes lonely. A friend suggests maybe he should get a pet. Guy goes to the pet store, explains his situation and the clerk suggests a bird. Guy spots a nice looking parrot in a cage and asks "how much". Clerk says $5,000. Guy says, wow....why so much. Clerk explains that the bird has memorized all the Puccini arias. Guy spots a less beautiful bird and asks how much for that one. Clerk says $10,000. Again, guy whistles and asks why. Clerk says the bird has memorized all the Schubert Lieder and could entertain him for hours at end. Guy then spots a beat up bird in the corner losing all his feathers and asks....expecing a real deal....." and what does that one do?"
Clerk says..." Frankly sir, we don't know, but the other birds call him Maestro".
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-18 17:39
So every member of the orchestra complains to the symphony management about how they just can't follow the new conductor. He's called into the office and fired.
Leaving the building, he finds it hard to believe he's THAT bad. Overcome by a fit of depression as he walks past a construction site, he grabs a brick and some copper wire, ties the brick to the wire and the other end of the wire to his wrist, stands on the streetcar track, tosses the brick over the high voltage line, and... nothing happens.
Totally dejected, he removes the wire from his wrist and walks away, mumbling, "I guess they're right... I am a terrible conductor."
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-06-18 18:04
BobD....
I've heard that one before for a start! hehehe
I've played under 4 of the conductors on my original list...I know I couldn't anticipate what they were doing. I didn't need to. They were perfectly clear.
If you have to anticipate, there might as well be no conductor.
Now there's an idea.....
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-20 04:12
Tilson Thomas was an oboe student and player in various groups in the Los Angeles area some years ago. He studied with my oboe teacher. Thus, he must have a feel for the need for a conductor to provide clear directions to the players.
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Author: clarinetpro
Date: 2004-06-20 06:03
Just play good ensemble..... that's it. Some of these guys couldn't keep a beat if they were paid... and they are PAID!!!! lol.........
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