 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-06-16 16:07
To what extent can a musician be "self taught?" Guitarists, for example, frequently cannot read music and hold their guitars at crazy, unconventional angles but make very acceptable music. However, it seems to me that the beginning clarinetist would be very hard pressed to be self taught. What about the more advanced clarinetist, trying to learn Brahms chamber pieces, for example. Can these be "self taught," or is it better for a teacher to advise re: fingerings, dynamics, etc.?
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2004-06-16 16:38
IMO, unless the musician is a genious, it is impossible to become advanced player only by self-taught. Music is so complex (dynamics, phrasing, tone, pitch, fingerings, dexterity...) so you need a good teacher to progress.
(a bad teacher could be worse than a self-teaching process).
I always wonder on my friend (popular) guitar players. They know all the music by heart, without reading it. I think this is a fantastic capacity to hold all the music in the brain (and I'm not bad in memorize).
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-16 16:47
To the extent that a person can't or won't take a few lessons, wjk, "self-taught" might be a semi-legitimate term. I believe "self motivated" is a better term for the sort of personality I think you're referring to.
I don't know of any musicians (personally, that is) who are truly self-taught. They may not take "formal" lessons but they associate with other musicians sooner or later - some of whom play the same instrument. So, if the person is really into it there's an ongoing exchange... of ideas, techniques, repertoire, effects and gimmicks, listening and playing with others. That, in my estimation, is not self taught in the sense that the person did it all independently and without any assistance or advice from other players.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2004-06-16 17:18
ron b....for sure. I think you described many of the old time jazz guys perfectly....they may not have had "formal" lessons, but they were picking up plenty at jam sessions. They are sometimes ( I believe) misslabeled as self taught.
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-06-16 18:16
wjk, I think that it´s better to have a private teacher to work with, but if you have played few years and think you have the technique to play some chamber pieces, then go for it! (Many good virtuosos are pretty much self-taught) I wouldn´t see any harm performing chamber pieces with school mates, friends etc. I actually do it pretty much myself. So I would see it like this: If you are musical and have the technique, why not?
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-06-16 18:16
Perhaps we should be considering or defining three categories; e.g.: "took formal lessons", which is self-explanatory; "self taught", meaning those who did it completely on their own; and "did not take formal lessons" meaning those who were self-taught but benefited from mentors.
Hans
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-16 21:01
The "old timers" you refer to, Frank, are the ones I had in mind when I posted above but it might be said as well of other, such as Baroque, periods. I've met a few of the "old timers" and, while a few weren't "schooled" in the usual sense, they spent a lot of time with peers who were [trained] and were pleased to pass it along. Also, while many may not have been great readers and scholars themselves, they did have the motivation to practice what the could, what they liked, and play it well. I believe this 'process' applies to musicians today as much as it always has... regardless of what we might think of the outcome 
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-17 00:07
There were some excellent posts on the topic in a couple of threads in the past, along with some rather bigotted views.
Do a search on 'self-taught'
Includes:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=24917&t=24842
&
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=37118&t=36852
Post Edited (2004-06-17 00:10)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-06-17 14:08
wjk, your posts are always thought provoking. In my opinion not even a genius could play any of the "classics" to the satisfaction of a credible critic without appropriate guidance. The genius might play such classics to his own satisfaction, however. Interpretation of the classics is a group effort.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-17 14:20
Quote:
wjk, your posts are always thought provoking.
I love WJK's posts. I really missed those months where he seemed to have dissappeared. They are always hit interesting topics and open great discussions.Quote:
In my opinion not even a genius could play any of the "classics" to the satisfaction of a credible critic without appropriate guidance. The genius might play such classics to his own satisfaction, however. Interpretation of the classics is a group effort. The clarinet instructor at my college has a doctorate's in music. Plays ONLY clarinet (no doubles). Is fantastic (to me it sounds/looks like he can play ANYTHING with ease). He loves classical (specifically chamber music, but prefers playing classical to anything else).
And HE takes a lesson here or there when he has to perform a 'landmark' piece. From the guys who HE respects. When playing Weber, he'll take a lesson or two from Ricardo Morales. He'll take a lesson from Stanely Drucker, or Russianoff, etc. So like Bob D pointed out, I also think that ANYONE can benefit from the occasional lesson here or there.
As far as how far you can go being primarily a self-taught clarinetist, that's a good question. I guess it depends on your sense of musicality in general. I'm willing to bet that there are/have been self-taught clarinetists that are more musically appealing to my ears than someone that's taken lessons all their life.
As far as fingerings go, I would figure that if you can play a certain technical passage, and it sounds good, I don't see the REASON to worry about fingerings. If you can consistently slide between C and Eb key instead of using the alternate fingering, then consider yourself lucky and do it. If you are comfortable enough to step up/down chromatically using a 'flip' of the finger for F to F# (in ANY case), do it. Some people will say, "But it's easier to do it THIS way . . . ", I say just do whatever you're comfortable with. Because music is about the SOUND, it really shouldn't matter what combination of fingers make that sound. Just as long as you are happy with the sound that is made.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-06-17 15:03
Thanks for the great responses, as usual. The members of this bulletin board are truly brilliant!
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2004-06-17 15:21
Everybody at all levels needs a periodic upgrade of their approach. It keeps their playing fresh. But the best thing is to listen very carefully to the opinions of your musician friends. A good ear is invaluable.
Take care,
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 18:10)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-17 16:50
Quote:
have a friend who plays the piano. He took about two years of piano lessons when he was 12-14. He has been playing since. He plays all kinds of music: Rag, Showtunes and some classical. His playing is truly atrocious. His music theory and piano technique is limited to what his teacher was able to squeeze into his pre-teen mind. What he really needs is a teacher to break him of his terrible habits, teach him music theory, insist on scales and arpeggios, and get him to play more challenging pieces. Now someone like this needs a teacher. But maybe someone else realized how important music theory, arpeggios, scales, etc. are to music and read books, listened to audio tapes, took classes, etc. And they (while maybe STILL wouldn't be 'perfect') might be better off than your friend.
As far as the "bad habits" go, I've always wondered about this. Some habits that are sometimes considered "bad", may not actually matter. A good example of this would be Charles Neidich's 'finger flare' as I refer to it. Apparently (I haven't seen him in person, but have heard) that his fingers fly ALL over the place. Most people are trained to keep the fingers JUST above the holes. However noone is going to dispute that he's a good player. So does that bad habit matter? Another 'bad habit' would be air leaking out of the sides. However EVERYONE knows someone that's a good player that does this. So does THAT bad habit matter?
IMHO, the only 'bad habits' that should be dealt with (I'll try to give examples if I can think of one), are those that hamper your musicality (bad habit of blowing everything out at 'forte') and/or set a limit to your 'max' playing ability (someone who has a habit of slouching when they play and so can't get very good, sustained air support from the diaphragm). Other bad habits I would only deal with if they NEED to be dealt with. I wouldn't worry about a person that doesn't ever use the sliver key Eb/Bb (aka - myself!) IF it's not a big deal and they can still play any passage/scale just fine without it. I wouldn't worry about the person that prefers to tremolo an A to the C over the break using BOTH hands instead of a combination of sidekeys (provided they can do it, and it sounds good). I wouldn't worry about the person that maybe sticks their elbows out and sways the music (unless the person next to them is constantly being bruised/battered). I mean, if these things don't interfere with the music, why should it matter?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-17 16:57
Re: 'bad' habits and whether they matter musically: a very fine clarinetist who has been previously mentioned elsewhere on the BB (I shall not name names) is in constant motion with his body whenever he plays -- I and a few others who have played with him or heard him from the audience, find his motions to be very disconcerting, although they in no way detract from the acoustical/musical aspects of his playing -- his habit is just a visual distraction. So, is this a bad habit that should have been "un-taught", or should we ignore it?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-17 17:12
Good case Dave! It's funny how the human body works. We normally hear something better if we can "see" it. For instance, try having someone talk to you while looking at them, and have someone talk to you from the side. Try to focus your ears on the side while looking at the person in front. Then turn and focus your eyes as well on that 'side' person. You'll find that it's much easier to block out whatever you're NOT looking at.
As for me personally, I tend to either stare out into space or I like to shut my eyes while I listen to music/concert (which I'm sure people give me dirty looks for 'falling asleep' during a concert, but that's ok cause I don't see those either!) That way I make sure that ONLY my ears are influencing me and I can make sure to concentrate only on the sound.
I really don't know about that one. I guess due to the human body and way the brain works, something like that COULD affect someone's thoughts about the music. In which case maybe it SHOULD be untaught (or at least lessened). But then again, if it was a third clarinetist in a wind ensemble that doesn't even get seen, what would be the point?
For that matter, maybe we should make sure that no one that society might consider ugly play any solos (ahem ahem . . . . excuse me while I clear my throat while looking down and kicking at the ground in front of me . . . ) because maybe that would throw us off a bit. Then again there's always plastic surgery . . . . . . ?
There's obviously a visual connection to music, else why would ensembles get all 'done up' for performances? I'm sure they can play well with OR without a tuxedo/makeup/hair gel/toupee/whatever. But you, Dave, are walking that fine line in your example! WHEW! I wonder which side of that line you will ultimately fall on . . . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-06-17 17:53
Right on,Dave. Snake charmer gyrations are OK if you're charming a snake or playing a solo but are out of order in a group. You can't ignore them just as you can't ignore those who keep time with their feet.
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Author: williamainsworth
Date: 2004-06-17 19:50
I am a self-taught player [I used Rubank and other tutorials though] and I think that you need to do a lot of reading all you can get about the clarinet to be self-taught. I realized this when I practiced with a high school senior band. One of the young women who played third clarinet with me had been playing in the school system for years but she knew only one fingering for B flat/E flat. And who teaches you when to put your right hand down before going over the break. It isn't in a lot of the tutorials [that assume you are working with a teacher]. I don't thing a young person should be self-taught. It is OK for an old guy like me who took it up at age sixty and will never be any good but loves it anyway.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2004-06-17 20:08
Okay.......
I started clarinet in the 7th grade and played all the way through high school.....even had private lessons with Anthony Russo....who was retired from the Houston Symphony and really really OLD. 80 something....and it he didn't have a clarinet in his mouth it was a pipe...and he drooled...but that dude could pick up a clarinet and play classical like you couldn't believe...I learned a lot from him.......
NOW,,,,my parents move me to Berkeley California (actually Albany) which is next door....and I start high school.......despite 2 years of clarineting, the last playing bass, and all those private lessons.....the band director Mr. Douglas said he had enough clarinets and bass clarinets.....but knew I wanted to play in band and orchestra....so he asked what would I like to play instead? Well.....this was 1965. I had become completely enamored with rock and roll thanks to the Beatles....so...I said....I want to play the drums. He told me he had all the percussionists he needed in band....but wait a minute....I don't have anyone to play tympani. So that's what I got to do. And not a single lesson. He even let me perform "Tympat" ( think that's what it was called)...a sort of solo for Tympani....AND....threw me in as drummer for the schools Jazz band....NOT A SINGLE LESSON on either...
and damned if it didn't click.....I went on from there to make a living playing drums in rock bands in San Francisco from '66 to '74. Even sat in with Jefferson Airplane and Creedence.
Now if that ain't a story about "self taught"......
Unfortunately, no one ever asked me to play clarinet...or bass clarinet....so I gave them up until november of 2000.....Now I'm happy again....
JG
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-17 21:29
lol! Quite the "serendipity" situation! Just like how how the Van Halen's ended up with THEIR respective instruments!
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-06-17 21:29)
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2004-06-18 19:53
I knew a guy whose uncle gave him a flute and a couple of Rampal recordings-no fingering chart. He actually learned to play by trial-and-error although he had some pretty unorthodox fingerings.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-18 20:05
I've heard (and seen video clips) of a completely self-taught guitarist that plays spanish salsa. However I'm not talking about your 'average' selftaught guitarist. He had NOONE to each him, NO BOOKS to follow, and so when you see him play, he plays the guitar upside down and backwards (because he initially started holding it like a lefty, but without reversing the strings). And he sounded pretty good to me!
US Army Japan Band
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