 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elise W.
Date: 2004-06-13 23:23
Hi all -
I recently had my R-13 stolen from a (locked) office at my high school.
A) How can I estimate its value for a police report? I bought it five years ago brand new. Since, the silver plate has worn down on many of the keys to expose the copper plate, and the thumb rest was repaired about three years ago (to new condition). Otherwise, it's in mint condition. How could I go about having a phantom instrument assessed?
B) Other than filing the report and seeking insurance, what should I be doing right now? I've been checking eBay and I've heard that I should call local music stores so that they check the serial number if they see any instruments come in fitting its description. I've been told by my insurance company that I'll be reimbursed the then-purchase price when I get a police report number.
Any other suggestions?
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-06-14 01:00
maybe i'm missing something but I don't see there any suggestions on how to estimate the worth of your instrument... I thought I remembered someone mentioning some list somewhere with instrument values but its escaping me at the moment , hope you get it back
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-06-14 01:05
Bnatural wrote:
> I thought I remembered someone mentioning some list somewhere
> with instrument values but its escaping me at the moment
An estimate for a police report can be gotten easily from eBay. 5 year old R-13s aren't too rare.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-06-14 02:43
Hi Elise,
What a very sad event but as you probably can guess, these things do happen more than we expect. So, how to estimate the value of your 5 year old R-13.
While I am not an accountant, it would seem that:
1. The value of your R-13 in the time in depreciates to its salvage value should mirror the market value each year.
2. Using the straight line method (there are others methods but this one is pretty straight forward), if you figure your R13 has a 20 year life, just deduct salvage value ($100-200) from the purchase price then divide that balance by 20 years to get the yearly depreciation figure. An accountant may tell you to use a shorter period.
3. Multiply that number by the 5 years you have owned the clarinet and then deduct from the purchase price to arrive at a "reasonable" estimate for the police report.
This should get you in the ballgame but I think we have a few accountants that frequent the BB that may want to refute and/or improve on my approach. Fair wear and tear on your clarinet is expected.
HRL
PS The only problem with using eBay as the sole source for an estimate is those prices seem to be somewhat lower than retail which is probably what you will have to pay for replacement R-13.
The insurance people may feel differently about how you should do things.
Post Edited (2004-06-14 02:44)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-14 06:52
We're all sorry about your loss. Are you renting a replacement while you deal with the insurance?
Why not get an estimate from your local dealer for a new R13 Buffet replacement instrument? How else would you replace it? Don't count on getting a used bargain horn by mail untested and unseen when the insurance company will pay for an equivalent new model, which still may not be as good as your tried and true instrument. Don't expect to find an equivalent used instrument. A five year old clarinet is practically a new instrument as is my 5 year old R13.
You likely have lost some time as a result of this but the insurance company will probably not wish to compensate you for it. Good wishes!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-06-14 11:06
Hi Wes,
Good ideas in theory but the insurance company will be interested in the deductable as well as the depreciation on the original R13. Plus there will be a consideration that unless replacement value was part of the original policy one can never hope to recover completely.
Then there is the issue of will the policy holder's premium go up in the future with this claim. Having insured a lot of airplanes in my life as well as having recently endured a home breakin and theft, all these factors are in play.
HRL
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Author: David Stringer
Date: 2004-06-14 11:43
My household insurance pays for replacement value. In the past they have allowed me to purchase a reasonable replacement and send them a bill.
David
David
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-06-14 16:59
Items are generally insured for "retail" replacement value, not auction value.
A clarinet that you might pick up on ebay for $200 (with only the word of the seller and a couple of pictures to determine condition), would probably go for $500 or $600 if purchased from a reliable retailer, with a guarantee.
Find out what clarinets like yours are going for at several reliable retailers to determine the replacement value.
John
PS. On the aniques roadshow they frequently estimate an auction value and then quote approximately double that as an insurance value.
Post Edited (2004-06-14 22:01)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-06-14 17:56
We have mixed signals here.
Police reports generally want depreciated value in thefts (I've made out a report or two over the years and they report was specific "current value" I believe was indicated); insured value is something that is between you and your insurance company and varies depending on your policy.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-06-14 18:29
I think the first thing you should do is find out exactly what your specific insurance policy covers. (Also find out if the school has insurance.) Depending on the policy, it may be:
1. original cost
2. cost to replace new, or
3. cost to replace with an instrument in condition similar to the one you lost.
If it's original cost, find your receipt.
If it's one of the replacement costs, I agree with John, I would not use eBay -- it will almost certainly underestimate your loss. I would suggest you contact the store where you originally purchased your clarinet and as many local retail stores, say within a 100 mile radius, as you can and find out either their new price or used price, as appropriate. If used, also find out age and condition of the specific instrument(s) they have for sale.
As a benchmark, Weiner Music currently lists two used R13's on their website -- one, apparently nickle plated, from around 1989 - 91 for $1,300 and one silver plated from around 1995 for $1,550. IMO, that should probably set a lower limit on your claim.
I would not use a depreciation formula such as Hank suggested. Accounting depreciation has nothing to do with economic (i.e., market value) depreciation. The purpose of accounting depreciation is NOT to assign a fair market value to an asset (a fact I have a very hard time impressing on my first-year students). In any case, at least if my R13 is any indication, with proper care, these instruments last well over 40 years and have a salvage value greater than their cost, i.e., over a long enough time period, these instruments tend to appreciate rather than depreciate in market value terms.
If the police don't have any explicit instructions, I would simply report your original cost, and the replacement cost new. The insurance company will probably have explicit instructions so you can work with them.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-06-14 19:07
Don't write it off just yet. First, contact the AFM local and make sure they add the serial number to their list of stolen instruments. If a member comes across it, they'll know it is hot that way.
Second, check the pawn shops in the area. A used R13 ain't diamonds (except to GBK...) -- chances are the thief doesn't know its value, and may have taken $75 to pawn it.
Good luck. Hope it all works out for you.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-06-14 19:37
Hi Jack,
Agreed about market value.
However, I was only trying to give Elise a number for the police report when I said " then deduct from the purchase price to arrive at a "reasonable" estimate for the police report." This was in response to her original question of "How can I estimate its value for a police report?"
Also, as I stressed, the insurance company may have other ideas which will depend on whether replacement value insurance, with the associated higher premium, is carried.
There are a lot of factors in play with this thread.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-06-15 02:59)
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Author: Neil
Date: 2004-06-14 21:44
I would suggest supplying the insurance company with the current list price and letting them bargain you down to actual retail price.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-14 21:49
Since a professional-quality Clarinet is not a file cabinet, using any ordinary depreciation schedule to estimate actual cash value will not do a proper job. Some Clarinets will appreciate in current dollar value rather than depreciating, and hardly any will depreciate to zero value at the end of twenty years -- or any period. For example, most fifty-year-old pro-quality Clarinets are worth more current dollars today than their original cost in then-year dollars.
I suggest you determine its value the easy way: depend on a single expert. Contact a seller of similar instruments. Describe yours, and ask what the price would be for that instrument if it were for sale. Most would be pleased to help, because you just might buy something from them in the future.
Regards,
John
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