 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetcurious
Date: 2004-01-19 16:43
I play saxophone in mixed groups (mostly at church) so I play a C-Melody to avoid transposing. However I sometimes feel I need something that can convey a more intimate feeling... Then I listened to some clarinet music over the CBC radio (I live in Canada) and I really liked the sound of the clarinet; I started researching and found out that they were playing a G-clarinet.
After some more research (about two months worth) I saw that the G clarinet has basically the same range as a C melody and C soprano together and that it's fingering allows me to play it as a non-transposing instrument in the low register; so I decided to get one and learn. Here is where problems began and your opinions are greately appreciated.
1) I have analyzed the Boehm and Oehler fingering charts available on-line and came to the conclusion that they are very similar. Perhaps the Oehler is a little bit more consistent within itself on the altissimo register (I won't get there for a while) but that's it. BOEHM=0, OEHLER=0
2) I'm aware that I will have to get a clarinet techer so that I can lay a sound foundation in embouchure and basic technique. The standard in Canada is the Boehm system so this is probably the type of instrument they would prefer. BOEHM=1, OEHLER=0
3) By the same reasoning any didactic material around here will be linked to the boehm system. BOEHM=1, OEHLER=0
4) French bore instruments seem to be more nasal in sound. BOEHM=0, OEHLER=1
5) Boehm system G-clarinets seem to be twice as expensive as the Oehler kind (for basic models). BOEHM=0, OEHLER=1
So it's a tie and I would appleciate your input on the importance of supply availability for the Oehler system since this is the way my resources lean me towards, and any other considerations that I might have over-looked.
Thank you very much
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-19 17:43
Hi C C - You pose some very interesting questions, my first thot was to suggest you obtain [library, purchase] one of the many "Good books with Clarinet in the title", and/or read/copy [library] the several pages of clarinet discussion in the Grove Dictionary of Music ----, so as to get better acquainted with our great inst. The cl is known as a transposing inst, since most of our "family" are sized so as to play in musical keys other than C [as is piano, oboe, strings, etc] for reasons of tonal character and range. There are clarinets in C, a soprano and a bass in particular may be available, but are not widely used. If you have little desire to learn transpositions [the one to play C music on a Bb cl is not difficult], it sounds to me like a bass cl in C [somewhat rare] would "out-range" your C Melody sax considerably, as well as any G cls I've ever seen. We have many musicians who are knowledgable re: the "German" [Oehler etc] cls and the lesser-used Boehms, so I hope they may respond with more help than I can offer. Much luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-19 18:18
If you want a G-clarinet, I am afraid you may be in for some disappointments.
I am surprised you have managed to locate such a thing as a Boehm-system G clarinet. I was under the impression that all G clarinets were built with German-style fingering systems. (Strictly speaking, not Oehler: the term Oehler is correctly applied only to the most complex forms of German keywork. But it is often used loosely to include various simpler German designs. True Oehler instruments are expensive beasts.)
G clarinets are rare in the West. Turkish musicians use them, but most of the instruments they use do not seem to come up to the quality standards we expect.
You should also be warned that different countries use different pitch standards. The international standard is A=440, and in the USA, England and Canada this is what we use. Germany tends to A=442 or A=444 and therefore German instruments are tuned to that. You _can_ adjust the tuning to some extent, but the results may not be very satisfactory. What pitch the Turks use I have no idea!
If you want to learn the clarinet, I think you should buy a Bb Boehm like 95% of us play! Or if transposition is really an issue for you, buy a Boehm C clarinet.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2004-01-19 18:45
Ripamonti makes a half-soprano G clarinet, boehm system.
see on http://www.laripamonti.com/ecommerce/ and look on "clarinet" in the catalog.
the price shown is 1.800 euros. No so expensive.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-19 20:04
I think it's odd you want a G clarinet ... don't let me put you off here, but have you contemplated the purchase of a C clarinet? You won't need to do any (tedious) transposing ... one thing tha is dissapointing (to some) about the C clarinet is that it has a very "matter of fact" tone quality. Not quite as dark (hate that word) as its (slightly) bigger Bb and A cousins and certainly not as "cheeky" as it's much smaller Eb cousin. Might be worth considering.
Your comments about the differences in fingerings is spot on. I play Bohem system because it is what is taught here ... a friend of mine and fellow poster here showed me his collection of German system clarinets and I found the whole system (as you mention) much more sensible in places.
I also like the tone of the German system clarinets, must be something to do with the purely bore, don't know.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-01-20 20:34)
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Author: clarinetcurious
Date: 2004-01-19 21:46
Thanks for your opinions.
To those bewildered by my choice I can say that my rationale is the "darker" sound and the fact that the fingerings for clarinet are similar to those of the saxophone but shifted down a fourth so that if the pitch of the instrument is shifted up a fifth (as in c to g) it "cancels out" and leaves me back in a comfortable position. (Disclaimer: I'm not implying that saxes are better than clarinets; arguably they are inferior in range and manoeuvrability, just more popular and perhaps easier to handle)
If I chose a german clarinet...
a) how hard is it to get supplies in northamerica?
b) can you cut french style reeds to suit a german mouthpiece?
c) if I would take lessons, is it just a matter of having a german chart nearby and then get on with it? (any instructors out there?)
d) any feel for the cost of going against the grain (besides beeing looked funny at)?
I have a Romanian friend that can get me an Amati in G for a reasonable price for a grad student, some other German friends that can get me one over there at reasonable prices.
The french G clarinets have to come from Ripamonti (cheapest and still slightly more than double the Amati) or Stephen Fox which is more than my wallet can handle.
If I stop making sense let me know, I'm trying to finish my PhD in PhysicalCHemistry and can get out of touch with reality fairily easy ;-)
Having said that, this is a long term project so I can wait and save enough for the Ripamonti but I have to convince myself that it is really worth the extra cash.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-19 21:53
clarinetcurious, I believe I understand wehat you want and why you want it. As you indicate, a G-pitch Clarinet in its Chalumeau register is actually in C. Same as a Bb Clarinet's Chalumeau is actually in Eb.
If you have found a "full-size" Boehm G Clarinet, you have unearthed something I have never seen. Every G Clarinet I'm aware of (except an "octave" G Clarinet, much smaller than a Bb) has a fingering scheme closest to the modern German system, and that's standard Deutschegriff, 17 keys/4 rings, not Oehler.
The similarity between German system (just about the same as Albert) and saxophone fingering is very close. If you are already a saxophonist, the only significant fingering difference in Chalumeau will be the F/F#, and of course the bottom isn't so low. You'll also find a thing or two the sax doesn't have.
There are a lot of really sub-mediocre G-pitch Clarinets available nowadays. Most are metal-bodied, and I have seen little good written about them. Amati produces a wood instrument, model ACL-340S, which may be the best G Clarinet available nowadays. You can read about it at http://www.amati.cz/english/production/instruments/files/acl/german/acl_340.htm.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-19 22:17
I clicked "post" before I had intended, but that's probably good so I could see your second set of comments.
Everyone else who has commented has offered sound comments, I'm not sure all apply to you, because of the special purpose you have in mind. And I do not know what the mouthpiece and reed situation might be regarding G Clarinets. Someone around here might chime in with that information, as tnere are at least a couple of G Clarinet players who visit this board..
My comments are NOT advice, but here's what I'd do in your position, supposing that this will be your only interest in the Clarinet:
1) Get the Amati when practical.
2) Start playing it.
3) Discover the fingering differences between G Clarinet in Chalumeau and sax.
4) Start preparing my own fingering chart -- one unlike any Clarinet chart ever produced before (should NOT be an awesome effort).
5) Find a teacher who's willing to teach me what I want to know (such as playing from concert-pitch music in the upper registers), so I could do my thing better.
Good luck on your quest.
Regards,
John
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-20 08:44
To answer your reeds question - German-style reeds are readily available from Vandoren. No need to adapt French reeds. However, you might want to check what size reeds the G clarinet takes: whether they are the same as Bb/A or something larger and possibly difficult to obtain. It would also be good to check whether you can fit a different (German-style) mouthpiece if the one that comes with the instrument doesn't suit.
I reiterate my comment about pitch standards. Do not buy an instrument from Germany without checking that it can be brought down to A=440 without going horrendously out of tune with itself.
Finally, bear in mind that the German system has a wider stretch for the fingers than the Boehm, and a G clarinet has a wider stretch than a Bb. If you have small hands, you may struggle. Sax players often struggle when coming to clarinet due to the need to cover the holes; your proposed instrument will make this especially difficult.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-01-20 14:10
I don't think I've ever heard a G-clarinet. Can you tell us what you were listening to? I'd like to try to find it.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-20 14:22
Since computerized transposition programs are readily available, ask your church-band-orch director, I'd suggest you consider getting an inexpensive Eb Alto clarinet, learn to play it, and have your parts trans. to Eb. The inst. has a soft-playing quality and would easily cover the range you suggest. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-20 16:38
Jack, the G Clarinet is used in some Middle-Eastern folk music, especially Turkish and nearby. Search for G Clarinet and you'll find at least one or two posts from G Clarinet players on the Bulletin Board. Surely one of them could give you some specific sources for listening.
Regards,
John
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-20 20:36
Clarification, please is this G clarinet you're talking about a large one (nearer the size of the A clarinet) or a tiny one, I'm confused.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-20 20:55
Diz - My take of this thread is that CC is definitely talking about the "mezzo-soprano" G cl, half-way between the sops and the altos. This is also the range of the C Melody sax which he [IMHO] is trying to match, also is the Turkish cl like discussed and that CA firm shows in their catalog. That is why I suggested the alto cl [with transposition]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-20 22:03
David Peacham's comment about the size of a G Clarinet is quite right. The R1 stretch of a German Clarinet is magnified by the larger size of the G. Not a bad idea to try feeling one before buying to be sure you are prepared to handle it. Contortion is not fun.
Regards,
John
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-01-21 01:19
A Hammerschmidt G clarinet was owned by a collector that I know. It would be probably be quite expensive.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-21 01:32
Wow - I'd be very interested to hear what it sounds like ... is it the same step "darker" than the A clarinet from it's slightly bigger Bflat brother?
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-22 23:11
clarinetcurious - please let us know how you get on?
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-01-23 16:01
Diz,
The G clarinet stuff I know (Turkish/Greek folk stuff) is _usually_ played on a metal instrument. I don't think it sounds incredibly mellow. Typically the players use a wide-open mp like the Vandy 5JB and a 1.5-2 reed. This helps adjust to get the microtones that are everywhere in this stuff.
As far as instruments go, there are players who have wooden horns. (Sorry David P...) I tried an Orsi from Italy that Stewart Mennin has a coupla years ago at Balkan Camp and it was the most beautiful mellow sound ever...
My G clarinet is a Turkish-made metal one, and I have a really hard time with the RH first finger reach. I find that the narrow external diameter along with the slippery metal makes it hard to cover all of the RH holes all of the time. I did not have this problem with Stewart's wooden horn at all.
Best,
Katrina
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Author: clarinetcurious
Date: 2004-01-23 22:05
It took me a little to get this info but here it is.
The two cheaper contenders are the Amati340S german style, and the LaRipamonti G-bohem. ($Ripamonti~2$Amati)
-Both use a Bb moutpiece and reeds
-Both say you can exchange mouthpieces (french to german and viceversa) without trouble
-Amati bore 14.6mm, Ripamonti 15mm
-Distance between holes estimated (by me from pictures in website) is 36mm (average) in Amati. The Bb soprano distance estimated by the same method gives 32mm (coherent with an increase of overal length by 110mm). Slightly smaller than a tenor sax spacing and similar to a tenor recorder if it helps anybody.
-Both are tuned to A=440Hz. Amati comes with two barrels.
I can transpose written parts without trouble but there are often changes in program that catch me off-guard and then I'm a terrible sight-transposer that's why I'm trying to avoid it. I'm trying to learn how to do it; since a non-transposing instrument can be used to sight-transpose just by changing the key of whatever you are reading but doesn't "force" you to I think it's the best approach (for me who is amateur musician and has limited time).
Thanks for all your help.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-24 21:14
I may be over-cautious, but I'd be wary about the claim that you can exchange mouthpieces. They might fit in the barrel, but will they play in tune? Different bore diameters in "French" system clarinets require different mouthpieces. This is not so much of a problem for an experienced player, who can find a mouthpiece he likes and have it adapted. It could be a nightmare for a beginner.
The average distance between the holes is not the issue. The problem is the maximum difference. On a German instrument, this is between the first two fingers of the right hand. If you have big hands, no problem, forget I mentioned it. Do not, however, compare the distance with that on a tenor recorder. Recorders have small holes. Clarinets have big ones. The stretch on a clarinet _feels_ much bigger than on a recorder, because there is much less margin of error in how you cover the holes.
Again, I may be over-cautious, but I would double-check the statement that they are tuned to A=440. Make sure it is exactly A=440, not just approximately. May I explain why? Many years ago, instruments were built at either low pitch (A=440) or high pitch (A=quite a lot more, I forget the numbers). Nowadays, all are built at A=44something. In North America, you need A=440, not 442 or 444. Make sure that the statement "it is at A=440" means literally that.
I'm afraid I still think you are walking into trouble with this plan to buy a G-clarinet. In your place, I would get an ordinary Bb, learn on that, then think about where to go next. If transposition is really such a huge issue, buy a flute (never thought I'd say that to anyone!) But I think your concern with transposition is misplaced. You point out, quite correctly, that a G clarinet in its lower register plays at the same pitch as a C-melody sax. But how long are you going to stick to the low register? If you want to play soulful solos, and be heard from the back of the church, you'll be in the upper register soon enough, and straight back into transposition-land.
I understand your thinking. I also have fallen into the trap from time to time of reasoning that 95% of people buy X but I know better so I'll buy Y. I've generally been wrong. If no-one you've ever met plays a German-system G clarinet, there might just be a good reason. Not that it is impossible, but that it will cause you more problems than it solves.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Kasumi
Date: 2004-06-10 18:25
what you say about the pitch in Germany isn't right.
We have as pitch in wind orchestras A=442 (or 443/444) but symphonic Orchestra uses A=440. Therefore most German clarinets have two barrels. If there goes no secon barrel with the clarinet, you often can buy one.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-06-10 20:13
Hi:
You've been getting lots of good advice. I want to second some comments others have made. The Albert ("German") clarinets will seem to have finger holes that are very far apart for a Boehm player. I've had some who play Boehm Bb instruments say that even my Albert C clarinet's holes are too far apart. Magnify that for a Bb. An A is even more (too much for many). Now imagine the G clarinet's sound holes! It might take you awhile to get used to!!!
:-)
Second, I once tried 4 or 5 Turkish metal G clarinets. One of them was almost good (intonation, tone etc.). My Bb mouthpiece worked fine. However, the seller was asking about double what they usually sell for, so I passed. I've got my eye on Amati, but I haven't heard too much from people that have them as to tone, etc.. Any advice would be appreciated.
Good luck to you. I think that those who suggested bass clarinets or other saxes are probably giving you very good advice.
Kalakos
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2004-06-10 21:32
FWIW, The clarinette d'amour was pitched in Ab, G and F. There is a German instrument maker who can do one for you (do a search on clarinette d'amour and you may get his name), but it's expensive, and somehow I don't think that's what you're looking for.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-06-11 10:31
Kasumi
Die Zeit doesn't agree with you:
Karajan hatte ihn sehr hochtourig, auf 445 Hertz, gefahren, nun haben ihn die Berliner Philharmoniker tiefer gelegt, auf 443 Hertz; eine subtile Korrektur, die Musiker mit absolutem Gehör gerade noch tolerieren.
http://www.zeit.de/2003/01/Philharmoniker
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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