 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-06-08 18:41
Can one become a "virtuoso" on an instrument if you start studying it after age 40? Can anyone give examples of it having been done?
Thanks!
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-06-08 18:44
And how about after 65? I'm just sitting down to practice!
Henry
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-08 18:45
I've heard of an 18-19 y/o who had great success. Frankly I've never heard of anyone who was much older. No doubt it's happened. It seems more likely that someone might have success while DOUBLING, etc.
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-06-08 19:08
I´ve never heard of one. I´ve heard that it is easier to advance technically when you are younger. You will advance motorically till you are 20 or so. I´ve heard this thing from my former violin teacher so I´m not sure if this holds true when playing the clarinet? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-06-08 19:22
Robin McGee, one of the leading double-bass players in London, only took up the bass in his twenties. But he had played the piano professionally, and the cello as second study.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-06-08 19:42
It's easier to list the virtuosi who died by the age of 40 ...GBK
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-06-08 19:44
Well, at least I crossed THAT barrier! And, by the way, I am still practicing.
Henry
Post Edited (2004-06-08 19:55)
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Author: sdr
Date: 2004-06-08 19:53
I believe Andy Statman, klezmer virtuoso, began clarinet as an adult, but I don't know the age. He was already a mandolin virtuoso.
-sdr
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-06-08 20:06
David Peacham wrote:
>Robin McGee, one of the leading double-bass players in London, only took up the bass in his twenties.
It is really common that people who have played the violin, start later playing the viola also, or even change like I did. My viola teacher played violin also till the age of 16 and then changed to viola. My former violin teacher suggested me to start playing the viola, because I have quite long fingers. (guess, he suggested it to me also, because I was so bad a player. ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-08 21:16
I certainly hope it's possible. I just bought a violin with the intention of becoming pretty good (I'm not expecting to become a "virtuoso", but I'd like to think that with enough practice I could play some hard stuff). I'm only 22 so I hopefully haven't already passed my musical prime (how despressing would that be if I have???)
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-08 21:20
Jim Kanter was the 18-19 y/o. Of course, he had the great luck to have a famous Clarinetist father named Ben Kanter !
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Author: licorice_man
Date: 2004-06-08 22:42
How about someone that achieved a ARCT from the conservatory?
At least you can assess by grading
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-06-09 01:09
I find it interesting that new languages can be learned with relative proficiency at a later age. I initially was going to say that perhaps this is because no "muscle memory" is involved, but certainly we must use facial muscles (among others) when learning to "speak" in a new language.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-06-09 01:14
wjk wrote:
> I find it interesting that new languages can be learned with
> relative proficiency at a later age.
I thought the opposite was true (and have read so in a number of older psychology references). Where did you read this? It's news to me.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-06-09 01:23
Perhaps you are correct, Mark. I used the term "relative proficiency" since it is likely that "older" individuals may find it difficult to become truly "fluent" in a new language. My comment is based on anecdote/personal experience--and I will certainly be willing to "stand corrected" if prevailing scientific data indicates otherwise!
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-09 02:22
Unfortunately, when one turns 40 things start to head south ... I would, however, never suggest anyone not aim for the heights ... the only instruments I would not recommend adults to learn are violin and viola (I'm a viola player, too, by the way), because the position of the left arm is much easier to estabish pre-puberty when your bones are more flexible. Tucking the left arm in (under the fiddle) can be down-right painful in adults (with bones firmly set in place). This has been my experience ... the 'cello and bass are, of course totally different
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Author: Marcowelby
Date: 2004-06-09 02:26
I am not sure about virtuoso, but does someone know at what age did Woody Allen started to play the clarinet?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-06-09 02:33
Marcowelby wrote:
> I am not sure about virtuoso, but does someone know at what age
> did Woody Allen started to play the clarinet?
Most of his biographies say that he started at the age of 15. ...GBK
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-06-09 03:03
I don't see why not, I do not consider myself a virtuoso by any stretch but in my clarinet world I didn't "arrive" so to speak and/or reach what I felt was my prime until age 43. Of course, it took me 30 years to get there so I'm no example to go by...v/r Ken
Post Edited (2004-06-09 03:10)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-09 03:31
wjk wrote:
> I find it interesting that new languages can be learned with
> relative proficiency at a later age.
I thought the opposite was true (and have read so in a number of older psychology references). Where did you read this? It's news to me.
Mark --
What I recall, from my years as a graduate student in English, is that there is a window of opportunity for language acquisition that closes around the age of 12 years. If you have not learned at least one language fluently (syntax, grammar, etc.) by that time, then you probably will never be fluent in any language.
However, if you HAVE mastered one language by the age of 12, then it is quite possible to learn other languages fluently throughout your life. It doesn't matter whether you acquire your first language formally, or simply by osmosis. What matters is that you acquire it before a certain age or stage of brain development.
I don't know what the parallels are in regard to music acquisition, but I imagine there are some. I know, for example, that I will never, ever, be as comfortable reading keyboard music as I am reading clarinet music, because I didn't learn to read keyboard until my twenties. Interestingly enough, however, I CAN read scores pretty readily -- more easily than I read for keyboard -- and I didn't learn that until my forties. Maybe score reading is more analogous to single-line instrumental reading (my first musical "language") than to keyboard reading?
Susan
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-06-09 04:13
"If you have not learned at least one language fluently (syntax, grammar, etc.) by that time, then you probably will never be fluent in any language."
After having traveled around Europe for 20 years or so working with the USAF. I was told, by a learned military authority that one only needed three phrases to survive. They were:
1. "How much.?"
2. My dear, you are very beautiful."
3. "My friend will pay!."
He seemed to do quite well with it.
Bob A
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-06-09 09:11
It is possible to learn new language on the older age. My friend´s father is a living proof. He write a book in latin few years ago after learning the language just for a month or so. Pretty quick, eh?
I´m wondering why I´m much better reading clarinet music than reading viola music. I start to play the violin at much younger age than the clarinet. I have never had any problems with reading clarinet music, I am actually good at sightreading. I have got better in reading viola music also.
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2004-06-09 15:44
If it's any consolation, it isn't all that easy to become a virtuoso BEFORE the age of 40!
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-06-09 16:02
"If it's any consolation, it isn't all that easy to become a virtuoso BEFORE the age of 40!"
No, it's absolutely no consolation at all. I find this thread depressing, discouraging and just plain down right disheartening. Getting old is bad enough in itself. Surely out there in is world there is at least one example of some 40 year old who picked up a horn for the first time in his/her life and by the time they turned senile had at least made it into a major symphony orchestra.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-06-09 16:55
Hi,
I guess what wjk was originally asking was something like "is there such a thing as latent virtuosity" if I understand his question correctly. Maybe as someone gets older, they might become a very solid player in a shorter order if plain technique is not the only issue but to be the "one-of-a-kind" virtuoso seems hard to imagine.
IMHO, there are not many Cinderella stories like bill28099 would like to hear. I don't know any but on the other hand, I do not find talking about getting older to be "depressing, discouraging and just plain down right disheartening."
I know I can not sustain notes as long as I used to be able to do in my playing prime, I have more aches and pains then ever before, I have not been able to keep the athletic weight I had while in HS and college, etc.. But that's the way it goes.
However, I can solve some pretty tricky logistical problems very easily, I have a knock out a research proposal or article in a short time, I can .... You get the picture. I do not feel over-the-hill in any way.
Players like Larry Combs, Roger Bobo, Gene Zoro, and Jim Austin were possible virtuosi when they were in HS; they played so very well. I believe that such excess talent (aka potential virtuoso) comes through at an early age, is recognized, and if ones gets lucky is encouraged to develop. To have something happen of a virtuoso-level after 40 seems unlikely.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-06-09 17:56)
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-06-09 17:54
I certainly didn't mean for this thread to be depressing in any way. I actually think the replies are as usual, brilliant. I deal with many "elderly" individuals in my professional life, and I never fail to be astounded by their capacity for joy, invention, creation, and renewal.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-06-09 17:55
No examples to use, but I think it is possible, with sufficient work and study, to become proficient at a later age. I'm (cough, cough) over 40 and still improving. Were I to put my proverbial nose to the grindstone, who knows what I could do. (There are examples of famous painters and authors who started their craft later in life.)
Mind you however, that, like learning a language, if one has learned another instrument at an earlier age or has some working knowledge of music, the task will be much easier.
Don't be discouraged. Most profiencies are picked up at an early age because that is the time we devote ourselves to study. (OK, OK, young minds are more pliable, too.) Besides, devoting oneself to learning at older ages is a good way to keep the mind healthy and in shape. And you can still develop new synapses and possibly even brain cells.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-09 19:36
In the sake of fairness, what is the likelihood of becoming a true virtuosos at any age? I mean, they aren't that many out there anyway, right? If only 1% of adults can achieve virtuoso-status, that seems pretty depressing.. but if only 3 or 4% of kids who start young become virtuosos, it isn't that bad by comparison. And any one who teaches young kids knows that starting young isn't the only thing required to become really good.
Isn't it possible that some people have the ability to be virtuosos, no matter when they start? I would imagine that most people start playing when they are young, so it would make sense that more virtuosos start when they are young, but couldn't this just be the law of averages?? Because of this, it may appear that starting young statistically increases one's chances of become a virtuoso, but I would think, at least, for some, they are just born with it and could achieve greatness on their instrument no matter when they started...
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - these comments are not based on any scientific data, it's just my opinion! = )
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-06-09 19:44
Phat Cat, ok--I give up. What's a COF? I'm sure it bears no relationship to we members of the ROTH group. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) Really Over The Hill
Bob A
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Author: Brad
Date: 2004-06-09 20:17
Of course it is possible. With the right training and discipline I believe it is very possible to attain virtuoso proficiency after 40. I am 42, and am playing the best Clarinet of my life. I am playing things I never thought I would be able to. After 30 years of playing I feel I am progressing as fast or faster than I was when I was a music major in college. I owe it to being taught how to practice, and having a lot more discipline then I did when I was in my 20s.
I wish you luck in your pursuit of virtuosity.
Brad Cohen
Clarinetist
la_brad@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2004-06-10 16:27)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-09 22:48
In the literary world, it is often pointed out that Robert Frost did not get published until AFTER the age of 40 . . .
FWIW
Susan
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Author: Hraven
Date: 2004-06-10 00:15
To respond to the original question.
I think you can become a *virtuoso* starting after 40.
Play 3 hours a day and study with a good teacher or books.
Expect to be a virtuoso when you are 58 and hope you will live up into your nineties. *Virtuoso* is not just playing sixtiens in tempo 240, but also concept in performance, playing interesting intervals or pieces depending on you'r an improvisor or more classical oriëntated.
henk
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-10 00:19
Hmmm . . . virtuoso after 40? Well, I'm 21, almost 22. Taking into account my current rate of progress and my studying so far and . . . . . . . . .
Yeah. I figure I'll be LUCKY to become a virtuoso. Period. And just forget about trying to figure out WHEN it'll happen.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2004-06-10 05:47
Why not?
As long as you let the satisfaction be in the sensation of improvement and take pleasure in learning, the sky is the limit.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-06-10 06:11
I also continue to progress in my 40's but am not a virtuoso and will not likely be. As someone has mentioned above, doubling has worked out particularly well.
Allen Cole
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2004-06-10 07:10
what does 'doubling' mean exactly?
Do 2 things..like violin/viola?
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-06-10 11:56
Claclaws,
I double (perform) on both sax and clarinet (I also perform on flute, oboe, basson). So I guess I quint (if such a word can be applied in this situation). All instruments are not of the same level of expertise with sax being my best, clarinet second, flute third, bassoon fourth, and finally oboe).
HRL
PS I knew I could never be a virtuoso; I did not have that natural gift and I did not want to devote many hours per day of my life to try to achieving top quality technique. I'm a very good player though and I am fine with that level of performance. One advantage I do have is being able to play all styles which comes in very handy when you are gigging and/or get calls.
Post Edited (2004-06-10 16:23)
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2004-06-10 16:44
As Pablo Casals played flute other than cello, I expected he staarted to play flute after 40. But I found he learned cello,violin,flute,and organ in his youth.
http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/casals.html
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2004-06-11 15:16
For me, the test is enjoyment. I want to be "good" but don't aspire to be a virtuoso. Still, that doesn't stop me from enjoying where I am. It's the same with saying I enjoy playing tennis, even though I'll never be as good as a professional tennis player. As long as I'm moving forward and improving with music, I'm happy.
Leonard
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-06-11 16:36
There once was an old virtuoso,
who played the pants off any bozo.
His wife, though, was hardly impressed,
'cause whenever she got him undressed,
'tween the sheets his technique was just so-so.
Henry
Post Edited (2004-06-30 17:04)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2004-06-11 17:11
Actually, I DO know of one...
a tenor player in NYC named Bob Kindred, who gave up a settled life as a professional-level businessman to become a musician...this was in his thirties, I think...after having heard Phil Woods play at a local club. I don't know if he started totally from scratch instrumentally or had some rudiments already, but everything he is now, he has made for himself the hard way. Bob is active on the NY scene, a tremendous musician and a wonderful human being and is getting (in my view) inadequate recognition for his prodigious talents, but he's also a good object lesson regarding second chances in life. And definitely worth hearing if he's ever in your area!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-06-11 17:19
(only because Henry inspired me to do it)
Her tongue was the best I had met.
Her fingers would drive me to sweat.
Before you get mad,
It's really not bad.
I'm talking 'bout playing clarinet...GBK
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Author: bamusic
Date: 2004-06-28 21:11
This message is in response to the message from:
Re: Becoming a Virtuoso after age 40
Author: Hraven (---.demon.nl)
Date: 2004-06-10 00:15
I agree with Hraven! To become a virtuoso takes practice. It has nothing to do with age. Dear "wjk" (The person who asked, "Can one become a "virtuoso" on an instrument if you start studying it after age 40? Can anyone give examples of it having been done?") I know several people from my old collage music departement who enrolled after the age of 40 (one is a sax player, one is a bass player, and one is a vocalist). All of these people play professionally now (7 years since I first met them) because they were dedicated to practicing their instrument.
Also:
It doesn't matter if you become "the best" at your art because there will always be someone better than you ~ and noone will care how old that person is. The best you can hope for is to do what you love well enough that you can keep doing it til the day you die ~ and hopefully that will be long after age 40 (so you can be happy doing what you love for as long as possible).
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-07-05 20:48
You can get very good at any age. Starting in your 20's is not the biggest deal at all.
What is would be the time and effort that you put into it. Adults tend to be way too impatient with themselves so they expect too much too quickly.
Can you become a world class player as an adult?
I won't say "no", but the odds are against you.
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Author: clarinetpro
Date: 2004-07-06 01:55
I believe the answer is absolutely yes! A virtuoso is a virtuoso... in nature, talent, and character. That person will arrive at virtuosity almost regardless of when he/she starts.....
Bob Magnusson was a fantastic french horn player originally; to the point of playing with the San Diego Symphony. Years later he switched to stand up bass and is now famous for his playing...... the true virtuoso of that instrument..... his book is cutting edge but his playing is untouchable!
He played in the San Diego Symphony again for two years on a the bass...lol In the Symphony twice with two different instruments.
Many folks start out on an instrument at a very young age to never arrive at virtuosity. Others........ they make it seem simple.
There's a lot more to it than age.
So, keep practicing.
Don
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Author: Gardini
Date: 2004-07-07 22:17
I started from scratch at 44-45, just about four years ago. I don' t believe for a second that I will ever become a virtuoso player. I practice hard and the clarinet gives me joy that I didn't think possible. I have musical ideas that, perhaps benefit from maturity, and I am working towards the technical proficiency to realize them. I play with many kids in our student symphony. For the most part our motives and goals are very different. I have discipline and a sense of what I want to sound like. They are in general interested in playing very fast and barely listen to themselves. I have to work harder than they do just to keep up. Time is in their favor and I suspect that a few will go on to become very fine musicians. It is scary to think what Mozart would have done had he lived into his forties-and on?
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-07-07 22:24
Ah, Mozart ... he'd have probably continued persuing his favourite pastimes: billiards/snooker (whatever they called it then), eating chocolate, and adoring his wonderful wife.
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Author: Britbrit
Date: 2004-07-08 18:07
After having traveled around Europe for 20 years or so working with the USAF. I was told, by a learned military authority that one only needed three phrases to survive. They were:
1. "How much.?"
2. My dear, you are very beautiful."
3. "My friend will pay!."
This just proves that
a millilitre contains a small part of a litre
a millimetre contains a small part of a litre
and the military contains only a small part of intelligence
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