 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-06-07 01:57
Attachment: 66_1.jpg (32k)
Now I surely would like to know what this item is used for.
I suspect it happened when a bassoon and a clarinet got a bit too friendly and failed to wear a mouthpiece cap.
Copied from a commercial auction page. Offered by a commercial seller at a significant price under the heading of GERMAN OCTAVIN CLARINET c 1890 SAX ? "
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2004-06-07 02:05)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-07 02:18
I believe I've seen a "folded" [bassoon boot style] clarinet [a bass ?] in Brymer, Rendall [or other text]. Judging by mp size, this rather looks like a soprano or "mezzo sop"-alto [G, F, Eb] to me. Help, Al Rice. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2004-06-07 04:48
hehe, I added the pics on my clarinet webpage.
Check it out!
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~bswhite/clarinet.html
--CG
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-07 13:19
Yes, CG, It is shown by Rendall, Plate VII, c, as Early Bass Clarinets, Catterini, Padua, Glicibarifono, c.1838, Bate Collection. I prob. saw it, but no recall! If USD doesnt have one, Go For It, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-06-07 19:46
Thanks for the reply.
Contragirl....I was not able to access the photos of the instruments on your website. I may try a different browser later to see if I can load them.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-06-07 21:07
The best part of this design has all the tone ports and bell pointed away from the player... so you dinnae need to listen to the racket!
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-06-08 04:00
So what do you think it would sound like? If a clarinet produces sound because of the resonation of the air in the bore (bet I got that all wrong)--how would it sound all "scrunched" up? Have any of our older folk (heh! heh!) ever played one of these or heard a sound bite from one??
Bob A
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-08 14:13
Reading Wichita Band's expert's discussion of their OctavinS has made me look further re: this naming difference. I haven't found it in Sachs, Baines, Brymer, nor Rendall, but he has considerable discussion of this type of construction in his Chapter XI. My Lawson and Rice [Classical Period] are now in an OK Mozart [public library] display with horns and music so are unavailable. Will check Groves and other sources, but am curious and not wanting to differ with Wichita Band's naming. HELP, Please. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-06-08 14:21
Synchronous Bash
said
"dinnae need to listen to the racket"
"And you c'nnoht bring antimatter and antimatter together cold, Cap'n....she'll blow....."
He's dead, Jim.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-06-08 19:34
Alseg -
The instrument is an Octavin. It's been discussed several times, which you can find with a search on that word. It was an attempt to make a clarinet that overblew at the octave instead of the twelfth by using only a very slightly conical bore. I tried one many years ago. Here's what I wrote in an earlier thread:
The clarinet always vibrates as a closed tube. I have read (in Benade, I believe) that the clarinet reed spends more time sealed against the lay than it does open. This longer time spent closed promotes the closed-tube mode, which is why the clarinet sounds as it does and overblows at the twelfth. During the time the reed is open, the vibration remains in closed-tube mode, since any open-tube vibration is overpowered by the longer-lasting closed tube vibration.
An instrument can produce a stable tone only when it reliably acts as a closed or open pipe. The clarinet is designed to stay firmly in the closed-tube mode, just as the saxophone is designed to stay firmly in open-tube mode. A sax reed seals completely against the mouthpiece just as it does on the clarinet, but for a shorter time.
There have been attempts at an intermediate instrument, with a slightly conical bore that balances the open and closed periods, or falls just barely on the open tube side, but they were unsuccessful. A number of years ago, at the late, great Ponte's music store, Charlie Ponte brought out an early 20th century instrument called "Octavin," which had a clarinet setup but a bore just conical enough to act as an open tube and overblow at the octave. It was difficult to play, and sounded more like a saxophone than a clarinet. When I tried to make a clarinet sound, it quit playing altogether.
Octavins appear on eBay several times a year, usually priced at over $1000. They're uncommon, because they were unsuccessful, and little or no music was written for them. If you bought one, it would be as a collector's item, and to astonish your friends, and not because you might find a way to perform on it.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-08 21:00
Many TKS, Ken, a fine explanation/discussion. I just was not satisfied with my disagreeing with Wichita Band, but the bassoon boot joint similarity "did it". I believe that Rendall pointed out, that a big problem with that construction was the "drying" of the boot during and after playing ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-06-09 01:27
While the above horn is a different kettle of fish, there is at least one "bassoon style" bass clarinet here in the US of A.
Located at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, just south and west of Montpellier (the school moved there some time back, but kept the name of its old location), it's in the school's museum collection (along with such other oddities as the wheel from the USS Olympia and Mussolini's clock-telephone (don't ask).
About the length and breadth of a bass trumpet, the bore of the instrument is folded back on itself one time, and it has a short "right angle" neck and a slightly flared brass bell. The keying system had both "flap" keys and a few axles. I don't recall if there were any rings, though.
The instrument is misidentified as a bassoon in a catalog, but it's clear from what's in the display case that it's a bass clarinet, albeit a non-playing one. Also clear from the display cases is why they had it in the first place.
Vermont was one of three states that used to have a partially supported state military school. Formerly known as Vermont Military Academy (and located in Norwich at the time), it goes WAY back, just like VMI and The Citadel. As I've been given to understand, each of these schools were assigned a specialty by the Federal government.
Under that plan, VMI and The Citadel got infantry and artillery, and (almost incredibly, considering the terrain) VMA got cavalry. (The school preserves a bit of this to this day; although not a full military school, it has an armored ROTC unit, tanks and all.)
In one of the display cases, close to Benito's communication appliance, is a photograph of the band back in the early 1900's. Seated comfortably atop cavalry horses in a square formation, one can just make up what looks like a stunted bassoon being held by a young campaign hatted trooper.
Those who wish to view this musical oddity should call the school in advance, as the museum is not usually open. Other things to be found there are a gun from the Spanish armored cruiser Oyquodo, a Hotchkiss 4.7 cm revolving cannon, and all sorts of other oddities. Beautiful campus too.
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Author: Contra
Date: 2004-06-09 02:14
It looks like it has a keyring. I can just see the advertising now. "Take your bassoon-like clarinet with you wherever you go!"
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