 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-05-30 13:08
The worst thing just happened.
My case was open, I didn't realise, and I picked it up. My gorgeous, EXPENSIVE clarinets scattered across my hard wooden floor. The tenon of the lower joint of my Bb was shattered on one side - so much so that most of the little pieces have fallen off, I can't find them and there is now a chunk out of my instrument.
It's insured, so tomorrow (Monday) I'm going to find out if my policy covers accidental damage (my Dad insured it for me, so I'm not sure). But I'd like to know, how is this fixed? Is it expensive? As a precautionary measure, can I have my tech add a tenon ring (he's EXCELLENT and should be able to do if it can be done)?
I'm REALLY PISSED that I did this.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-30 14:20
Depending on the nature of the damage:
1. The chips can be glued back where they came from, probably using an appropriate type of cyanoacrylate ('super-', or 'CA') glue.
2. The chipped area can be filled with a composite built up from an appropriate CA glue and grenadilla 'chips' (actually more like dust).
3. In the past I have had excellent success building up such areas with epoxy glue (with black pigment), incorporating thin stainless steel reinforcing wires (i.e. needle springs) inserted (axial &/or circumferential) as appropriate, using holes drilled into the good timber, in the same manner that a dentist may reconstruct a broken tooth with pins and composite material. I have not heard of other technicians using this technique. For me, this has never failed.
4. Grafting - a traditional and reliable approach. The entire tenon is removed, and a socket bored out (using a lathe &/or a specialised tool) of the end of the body, to receive a new tenon that is turned to shape and glued in. Such a job, done with all dimensions accurate, is quite time consuming. Some technicians specialise in this type of lathe work, and do out-work for other repair depots. Of course, for a technician doing it daily, it is a lot faster.
For all of the above, for significant sized chips, a lathe is really required to ensure accurate finishing.
5. Acquire a replacement body, and transfer the keys. To correctly fit the keys to a new body can involve a lot of work, costing as much as the replacement body itself. This can be a very expensive option!
After any of the above work has been done, the end of the tenon may be strengthened by capping the end with metal. A metal cap can be bought, but is quite likely a poor fit, say too small in outside diameter, or too large in inside diameter. Or a cap can be custom-turned from stock metal (probably brass - cupronickel in thick rod is not easy to acquire) by a technician with a lathe.
A very successful, and novel approach by myself is to begin with a narrow strip of silver, of appropriate thickness, width and length. Chamfer both ends, and silver-solder them (overlapped) together, to make a ring that is a tight fit on the end of the tenon, stretching slightly larger if necessary. Then using burnishing tools, form the metal over the end of the tenon, and also down to the bottom of the cork groove, incorporating glue if desired. Once again, I am not sure if other technicians carry out this method. Although I have an excellent lathe, I still normally prefer this method. To get it right, and efficient, needs some experience. It takes me about 30 minutes. I often do the other end of the tenon too, when a tenon's diameter is too small.
Post Edited (2004-05-30 14:23)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-05-30 15:58
Thanks Gordon. Do you think it is out of the question to ask my tech to add a tenon ring as well?
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-05-30 17:08
Thanks Gordon as I too have a cracked lower tenon on a dropped Leblanc A. Fortunately, the piece has not completely broken away and your method 1 "CA glue" is likely the best approach for my case. I do have a couple of questions.
1) CA glue comes in various thicknesses. Which do you recommend?
2) How do you clean the wood surfaces prior to glueing. Soap and water, alchohol, acetone, etc., etc.?????? All tenons end up covered with bore oil, cork grease, contact cement and CA glue needs a nice clean surface for good adherance.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-05-30 17:15
Quote:
Thanks Gordon. Do you think it is out of the question to ask my tech to add a tenon ring as well? I'm no tech, or anything significant for that matter, but I feel there shouldn't be any problem just to ASK of your tech if it can be done. It seems like a perfectly legit question and there's no harm in asking it directly of your tech.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-30 17:25
Perhaps you should discuss this frankly with him/her.
I doubt many (if any?) other technicians are doing the lathe-less method I developed for myself, and only a minority of technicians have sufficient lathe facilities to carry out other methods adequately and accurately, as I indicated in my previous post. The 'stock' caps (tenon rings) that are available actually fit very few instruments.
I use my lathe-less method when tenons are loose. For a tenon that is already of sufficient diameter not to be loose, I would first remove some diameter of the end of the tenon. I also sometimes remove material to make the tenon end cylindrical.
Probably all other procedures and situations also involve removing some timber from the tenon. That is fine, providing the result is accurate and reliable.
What you DON'T want is your clarinet tenon 'mutilated' to fit a tenon ring which is a really loose fit in your tenon socket, by a technician with a poor perception of precision workmanship.
BTW, when Selmer Paris install original tenon rings on some tenons, these rings are beautifully set into the end of the timber. For some brands, you may have the option of sending your instrument back to the manufacturer for this work.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-30 21:06
<< Please note: Tenon "Ring" & Tenon "Cap" are used to describe a 1) protective or 2) cosmetic or 3) connnection balancing material placed around the end of a male tenon >>
On to the discussion @ hand ---
If the decision is made to GRAFT a Tenon, there should be no reason (normally) to employ & install a Tenon Cap. If the grafted Tenon were a poor fit & "rocked" when inserted & connected to the female - that is where & when a Tenon Cap should be/would be employed.
[ please note that there have been other discussions here & on The Klarinet List concerning "cures" for rocking. Notably some discussions, IMMSMR, involving the Buffet Prestige ]
These days, Tenon Caps are made out of various metal & are also made out of other materials such as Delrin. Carl Votaw, a well known repair tech & outsource for "jobbing", does them in Delrin. Also, Tenon Grafts can be accomplished in much the same way. Delrin & other man-made materials may be employed as well as Grenadilla & other woods.
IF a Tenon Cap were installed on a model which ordinarily did not employ a Tenon Cap - that would be a dead giveaway of a repair. I don't mention this in a manner that speaks to non-disclosure of the repair. RATHER, I mention it as a COSMETIC issue. IMO, the most professional repair is one that restores a clarinet to original OEM condition, where the ATTRIBUTES match. DSFDF
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-30 23:14
Interesting then, that for some models of Selmer Paris, it is completely random where tenon caps have been used. On their current top models, to my knowledge they are always used.
"..IF a Tenon Cap were installed on a model which ordinarily did not employ a Tenon Cap - that would be a dead giveaway of a repair..."
Not necessarily true. It could well be regarded as a strengthening or protecting improvement. I know of no tenon caps used for cosmetic reasons. That is far too much trouble to go to in a place that is not normally seen, for cosmetic reasons. However, a well-done capping job looks very good cosmetically, which is one reason I use silver for one of my methods.
Yes, grafts may be of polymer materials, but personally, I have never encountered a polymer tenon cap. If the material were very thin, it would offer little strengthening. However a valid 'operation' would perhaps be to completely remove the lip beyond the cork, and instead, sleeve with a polymer ring. My reservation would be, why be so destructive for so little gain?
To clarify my last post, I would suggest that manufacturers mainly use caps (on top models only, and most oboes to stabilise the diameter of the tenon, and to offer more strength against damage. I use after-market tenon capping almost exclusively for diameter gap filling, followed by the offering of added strength (*and filler containment, after filling a damaged area.
Post Edited (2004-05-30 23:16)
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-05-30 23:22
Re: "On their (Selmer Paris) current top models, to my knowledge they (tenon caps) are always used."
My 1988 Recital does not have tenon caps. Perhaps this is a recent change to the product line?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-05-30 23:56
Yes, LeWhite, tenons are repairable. As already explained, there are many ways to do the job; all of them 'correct'. However, Gordon's re-enforcement pin method is by far best way to do it, in my opinion.
Retro-fit, after-market application... whatever you choose to call it, putting tenon caps on pre-owned (old) clarinets, which had none originally, is an unusual procedure in my hometown. The normal, cost effective repair is to glue the pieces back in place, as close as you can, and then blend the seams to match the surrounding area, a nearly un-noticeable repair. Blending and scraping is usually done by hand because not many tenons are truly round, especially timber (wood). If the pieces are lost, grafting a new tenon or socket is reasonably quick and painless as well as cost efficient. When caps must be replaced, some techs I know start them on the lathe (by spinning/burnishing) and finish by hand, as Gordon does.
Wood is usually repaired with wood dust and super-glue, no cap, then turned to as near original as possible.
In my opinion, caps are more for looks than added strength. Although, I suppose, they may protect somewhat against chipping... if you handle your instrument with reasonable care anyway.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 00:30
Gordon said regarding non-OEM Tenon Caps being a "giveaway" to a repair:
"Not necessarily true. It could well be regarded as a strengthening or protecting improvement. I know of no tenon caps used for cosmetic reasons."
---------------------------
I wholeheartedly agree that Tenon Caps can serve a structural purpose - that was never an issue for me.
However, this conversation & its Threads are proof that all of us KNOW which clarinets have ("native" or factory installed) Tenon Caps & those which do not. e.g. Buffet R-13 NONE, Selmer Signature YES, etc.
That known & said, if I was a Buyer of a Clarinet that had a Tenon Cap installed which was not "factory issue" --- I would have to ask the question : "WHY does it have a Tenon Cap there ... ?"
That is the DEAD GIVEAWAY.
On the other hand, I have seen a Tenon Graft that was so finely & cleanly installed that an expert would do well to ask "Which Tenon was the one replaced". Much as I have asked Bill Brannen, "which tone hole was replaced ?" Much as I have asked Steve Fowler "how many pins & where" where the Crack didn't penetrate the Bore or a logo.
I am absolutely for FULL DISCLOSURE, however most Clarinetists are terribly ANAL regarding COSMETICS. It was the latter point that was the focus of my prior comment. For Clarinetists, CRACK is a 4-Letter word.
Post Edited (2004-05-31 00:43)
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 00:38
Gordon said:
"Yes, grafts may be of polymer materials, but personally, I have never encountered a polymer tenon cap. If the material were very thin, it would offer little strengthening. However a valid 'operation' would perhaps be to completely remove the lip beyond the cork, and instead, sleeve with a polymer ring. My reservation would be, why be so destructive for so little gain?"
---------------------------------------------
Carl Votaw has been doing these Delrin Tenon Caps for many a year. He also turns down a fair number of jobs where the the repair can be destructive, mainly where the walls of the Tenon, particularly to the protruding edges, are very thin. Carl has sent a couple back to us over time stating "just too dangerous" & recommending a GRAFT instead.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-31 00:47
Hans, Selmer's website mentions caps:
"ODYSSEE" model: "Metal tenon sockets (male)" (What is a male tenon sockt???!!)
"ARTYS" model: "Metal tenon sockets (male + female)"
http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/claribas/claribas.htm
MW, in my experience of quite a few Selmers ex-factory, the other models have tenon caps in a rather random fashion. Perhaps these are the ones where tenons were damaged during manufacture.
You ask "Why does it have a tenon cap?" It does not matter.. it is probably better off with one.
In my country, and I believe many others, there is very little anality about cosmetics.
Post Edited (2004-05-31 01:06)
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 03:05
"In my country, and I believe many others, there is very little anality about cosmetics."
---------------------------
Gordon, I don't doubt that for a moment. In the States, however, it is very different unless, of course, one is "GIVING the instrument away" (which means - it is being sold for very little - which relates back to my original premise).
A Clarinet in the U.S. which has any evidence of repair is immediately accorded status as "B Stock".
Unfortunately, from my experience of looking at many, many clarinets over the year for purchase & subsequent resale, when you see tenon caps on a model that ordinarily doesn't sport them - someone is trying to hide a chipped tenon or protect (& coverup) a repair.
YES, I think there has been some inconsistency in the Selmer Models as to which models had tenon caps and when, etc.
That, REALLY, is the way that it is here in the U.S.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-05-31 03:10
mw wrote:
> That, REALLY, is the way that it is here in the U.S.
That, REALLY, is an oversimplification and generalization that often does not hold true.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 05:06
"That, REALLY, is an oversimplification and generalization that often does not hold true."
----------------------------
Regarding WHAT?
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-05-31 08:27
See on my LeBlanc Concertos, by Bb has tenon rings on both the upper joint ones, and none on the lower joint. On my A, it is only the top and only the bottom. I find it strange.
I wish to have a tenon ring put on my Bb lower joint now because I'll be paranoid this will happen again, and simply to cover up the repair. Not for resale value, but simply because I'm a perfectionist and I couldn't stand to look at it every time...
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-05-31 08:50
My Concerto Bb, bought Dec 2003 and therefore presumably one of the last to be made, has only one tenon cap, which is at the top end of the upper joint.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-05-31 12:53
mw wrote:
> "That, REALLY, is an oversimplification and generalization that
> often does not hold true."
> ----------------------------
> Regarding WHAT?
Your attempting to speak for the USA.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-05-31 18:24
Great repair comments Gordon, as usual. So.....the real question , LeW, is what are you going to do to help prevent repeating the experience?? A homemade "Belt" made from nylon strapping and appropriate clips might be considered.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-05-31 18:30
Gordon,
Re: (What is a male tenon sockt???!!), I'm not sure if you are asking a serious question, but a joint consists of a tenon which is cut to fit into a mortise. It is my guess that the Selmer Paris site's creator found it difficult to translate this, hence the redundancy. Hope that helps.
Regards,
Hans
P.S. - I speak for all of Canada where we would prefer metal caps on our tenons, ceteris paribus ;-)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-05-31 18:38
hans wrote:
> Gordon,
> Re: (What is a male tenon sockt???!!), I'm not sure if you are
> asking a serious question, but a joint consists of a tenon
> which is cut to fit into a mortise.
A male tenon socket is a semantic impossibility; a tenon is male, a socket is female. Now, if they referred to the bottom joint as a hermaphrodite at least it would have made some sort of sense 
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 19:25
You still have not stated the issue or statement which you believe is an "oversimplification or generalization".
It's your prerogative to believe as you believe. Just as it's mine to form an opinion based upon the facts of thousands (YES, 1,000's) of purchases and sales of clarinets and clarinet related accessories.
Professional Clarinets which have repairs (of any type) to their wood bodies are accorded treatment in the U.S. as "B Stock" (or worse) when relating to resale price. This is a FACT - I have the experience & the proof in sheer numbers of transactions.
The U.S. market is quite supply-side saturated in number of instruments available for resale on a new & used basis. Accordingly, the laws of supply & demand apply & the "weakest of the litter" receives a lower FMV.
<Arms-length> FMV is based on the "the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer & a willing seller when the former is not under any compulsion to buy & the latter is not under any compulsion to sell; both parties having reasonable knowledge of the relevant facts."
[ Obviously, the "The willing buyer and the willing seller are hypothetical persons, rather than specific individuals or entities, and the characteristics of these hypothetical persons are not necessarily the same as the personal characteristics of the actual seller or a particular buyer." ]
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-05-31 19:31
mw wrote:
> You still have not stated the issue or statement which you
> believe is an "oversimplification or generalization".
>"In my country, and I believe many others, there is very little anality about cosmetics."
---------------------------
Gordon, I don't doubt that for a moment. In the States, however, it is very different unless, of course, one is "GIVING the instrument away" (which means - it is being sold for very little - which relates back to my original premise).
---------------
Your statement. A generality that is untrue in a great many cases - just go to any jazz session.
You can say whatever you want to, but it doesn't mean you're right. The relegation to "B" stock for a damaged & well repaired instrument is right & proper, and is not at issue here.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 21:23
My statement is 100% true in the marketplace which sets VALUE in $$$ for resale. If you believe otherwise you are dreaming. A once-damaged & repaired instrument is "B Stock", whether new or used. You, too, can say whatever you want but you have no retail financial experience to rely upon.
We handle estate sales for the heirs of those Jazz players. Yeah they like to sit in a group, drink beer & brag about the pins in their horns. You show me yours, I'll show you mine. BUT, the truth is that with every repair value decreases.
SURE we can find people who are willing to buy a repaired instrument, but we can't find anybody to pay the price the former or current owner wants for it. That's called the REALITY of the marketplace.
As to the American market placing a high value on "undamaged goods" you need do nothing more than LISTEN if you care to.
Post Edited (2004-05-31 22:31)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-31 22:27
If, yes IF selling is a major consideration, and providing that there is a local 'anal' attitude to repairs.....
The instrument in question is ALREADY damaged.
So the issue is which is better:
1. The evidence of a large (hence possibly insecure) filled chip.
2. A cosmetically beautiful reinforcement added to this filled chip.
3. A major operation which has been even more destructive, in order to install a grafted tenon.
Furthermore, when I see a brand new instrument from Le Blanc or Selmer, where SOME tenons are capped, but the middle one is not, I have to assume that these were damaged in manufacture, because the reasons for capping a centre tenon are far greater than for capping any other tenon. In mw's buying/selling climate, these would have to be rejects from the day they were born! I wonder if mw himself has created a microclimate in his personally large but globally small marketing world.
I would certainly have to acknowledge having created a microclimate attitude to repairs in the world around me.
A woman just came in to get a clarinet checked before she bought it. Artley student. Excellent value for money. Evidence of a broken off centre tenon socket, but also evidence of one of my superb pinning jobs, far stronger than the original or any grafting technique. The reinforcing makes this a better than original instrument, considering that plastic Artleys break rather easily.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 22:33
Gordon, no microclimate here. I merely LISTEN to the marketplace. To ignore the marketplace is FOLLY.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-05-31 22:38
mw wrote:
> My statement is 100% true in the marketplace which sets VALUE
> in $$$ for resale.
So the US (and the world) is anal because they'll pay less for damaged & then repaired goods. Not just the USA, which you so kindly set your limits at.
> You, too, can say whatever you want but you have no retail financial
> experience to rely upon.
Selling clarinets, no. Being co-owner of the largest Blackberry dealership in the middle US doing a some number of millions gross a year? I think I might have just a bit.
( http://www.connectione.com, http://www.connectione.biz, though I don't yet make any money on it yet, just the sales force making money )
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 23:56
"Not just the USA, which you so kindly set your limits at."
---------------------------------
I have stated the why's. You are ignoring them. It is a matter of supply & demand. Other countries have greater demand with lesser supply - the change in the "ingredients" brings about a totally different market REACTION.
I suggest you study & learn the formula.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-06-01 00:06
mw wrote:
> "Not just the USA, which you so kindly set your limits at."
> ---------------------------------
> I have stated the why's. You are ignoring them. It is a matter
> of supply & demand. Other countries have greater demand with
> lesser supply - the change in the "ingredients" brings about a
> totally different market REACTION.
>
> I suggest you study & learn the formula.
Being that I sell around the world, and have a vested interest in supply and demand of the products my company sells, I think I may know "the formula", your slights notwithstanding.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-01 02:19
"I think I may know "the formula", your slights notwithstanding."
----------------------------
Mark this BB is your Toy & we are at YOUR house. I haven't enjoyed any of the foregoing. Anything I said has been & was in direct response to something which you said.
FWIW, this isn't the first time that I've felt slighted by you. That said, I have no ax to grind nor any motive to carry out.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-06-01 03:31
Isn't an instrument B stock the moment it is played? For example, I buy a new instrument, play it for a week, return it, get SOME of my money back, it goes back on the shelf as B stock?
Anyway, I certainly don't want to enter this argument since I know nothing about it. All I know is that now my instrument is B stock, but that certainly doesn't matter as I am going to have it fixed, I will continut to play on it because this has not affected it's playing qualities and it is a good instrument. To ME, at least, it's still A stock!
Edit: In fact now that I think of it, my Concerto A was B stock. It was sent out to someone who returned it as they were not happy with it. On the contrary, I think it is among the best A clarinets out there and many who try it agree. B stock? Technically, but A+ stock to me!
Post Edited (2004-06-01 03:32)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-01 04:01
The least critical tenon on the entire Clarinet is the bell tenon. If it is badly chipped, say a third of it gone, it's not likely that either the player or a listener would know the difference -- because with less than half the tenon missing, the bell is not likely to be loose enough to fall off.
In fixing this defect, making it look good is much more difficult than getting it to work well. If you are not concerned about its resale value, almost any sort of repair that's reasonably sturdy would do the job, if the finished tenon fits well and the cork does what it should do. If you really want it, adding a tenon cap should be no big problem. It actually might help (maybe not) if the tenon is clobbered again in future.
These things happen, which should be obvious from Gordon's recitation of several ways to do the repair..
Regards,
John
Post Edited (2004-06-01 05:45)
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-01 16:46
IME, "B Stock" refers to an instrument with a (repaired) DEFECT of some type or a non-repaired cosmetic issue. Something about the "B Stock" instrument is NOT ordinary, although it may certainly play PERFECTLY.
The moment that a clarinet has been sold it is considered USED afterward.
The terms USED & "B Stock" are descriptive but, to me, unrelated.
***********************
I think I should have said this: "B Stock" has an "adjective-type" use. Rather than decide what YOU think it means, find out what the person or company using the term means.
Below is an explanation from WWBW/Music 1-2-3/& the various other names & sites that their companies operate under:
" New B Stock - Noticeable scratches, dents and/ or nicks. Typically a customer return or refurbished product. GUARANTEED TO PLAY PERFECTLY. Includes FULL MANUFACTURER WARRANTY and Music123's 45 day 100% satisfaction guarantee. Our loss is your opportunity to SAVE MONEY! "
Post Edited (2004-06-01 17:42)
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-01 17:06
Gordon, I believe, previously spoke to the issue of professional Techs he knew of who deal with the Trade ("jobbing out" as it is known IME) & who perform their work with Lathes & do enough work on a recurring basis to the point that the Tenon replacement ("grafting") is an everyday occurrence. They do it so often, that their work is 2nd nature.
For these Experts, cosmetic issues are not a problem. Repeating what I said earlier, many pro's would have a hard time finding the repair.
Of course, there are those who have a Lathe & are just great "first-nature" REPAIR types who can do perhaps an equally-fine repair even though they don't perform the job as often.
Previously, I was of the opinion that a Tenon Cap (aka Ring) could be placed on most any Tenon end. Carl Votaw & others have instructed me otherwise. No doubt, safety of the overall area of the clarinet being repaired was the foremost issue in their minds.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-01 22:06
I agree from first first-hand experience that 'first-nature' repairs in special situations can be superb. It just takes longer when it does not have the efficiency of being done by a specialist operator.
"....Carl Votaw & others have instructed me otherwise."
Can you elaborate on this - reasons? I disagree with them, but perhaps that is because my concept of 'cap' possibly includes a wider range of possibilities than theirs.
I have never seen or heard mention elsewhere of one of the approaches I use - the last paragraph in my first post - which is often completely non-invasive. If other techs regularly used it, and the likes of Carl Votaw knew about it, then the likes of Carl Votaw would be selling the appropriate materials for doing it.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-02 00:00
Carl expressed to me that where the walls were too thin or where there was significant "chipping" of the outer wall of the Tenon end - that it had been his experience that Tenon grafting (replacement) was called for as opposed to installation of a Tenon Cap. I got the impression that the work involved to fit the (would be) Tenon Cap to the receiver on the Bell would be for naught - totally wasted - it would be lost on a failure in creation of the Tenon Cap. Finally, that even if there were initial success with the Tenon Cap, strength issues might arise down the road.
Carl & Votaw Tool can take an email these days - as their website is complete with online shopping.
BTW: Carl Votaw only does Tenon replacements with Delrin, not wood - at least that is my understanding. He is not alone in that regard since there are several other specialty shops that follow that "man-made material" only. I have a couple of #'s at the office for these specialty shops - I am at home now.
Votaw Tool has 1000's of similar wood repairs (clarinets, bass clarinetsm bassoons, oboes) under their belts. When Carl turns down paying work and plays postage back to me, that speaks volumes to me.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-02 01:00
Well all I can say, is that from my experience, including processes CArl has probably never done, Carl is simply wrong, or else there was a mis-communication.
Non-present, third party conversation is not healthy!
A tenon, even one with a thin end, has to be in a very bad way before grafting is the only valid option.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-02 03:26
OK, let's ease up a bit. I was merely relaying what Carl saw & how he reacted subsequently in my situation.
Carl does not charge exorbitant amounts for his work. RATHER, I think he relates the expected repair to the cost & good that can be achieved. No doubt he has experience where all things don't work out perfectly THUS I am sure he has had to establish rules of thumb to deal with those situations which lend themselves to less than perfect outcomes.
Carl Votaw is very highly respected, the world over.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-02 07:11
I have respect for Carl too.
I wasn't trying to diss him. Its's just that no excellent technician ever knows all of the options that others may have refined found to be very successful.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-02 13:38
I will e-mail Carl & ask for an assist here - on this subject. Carl recently worked with me on his digital (bore) gauge measurement tool. He was very helpful.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-06-02 14:08
My major concern here is that an Australian would use the expression "REALLY PISSED". The only time you get really pissed in this country is by overdoing the grog/ piss. I suspect that dropping your instruments 'pissed you off' but did not directly intoxicate you. In other words the temporary demise of your Bb did not get you drunk, although this may be an eventuality. Cracks can be glued, filled or grafted, depending. I would be careful of the remedy and try and get a couple of opinions about which fix is the best. It is also possible to buy a replacement joint, sans keys, if re-sale value is more important. You can probably have the existing tenon patched up while waiting for the replacement. Be prepared to pay, or have insurance pay, for re-padding and other work on the new joint. Contact me for more info as I deal with the Australian Leblanc importer on a daily basis. Not an advertisement but an offer of help. Repairers make very little money out of this kind of problem.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-02 16:52
The Clarinet I play most often had a large chunk out of the bell tenon when I bought it. It was played in that condition for several months without problems. The repair which was done (not by me) used a composition material to build up the tenon to approximate its original dimensions, and the cork was replaced. No tenon cap was added. There is no concern at all about resale value, as there is no intent to resell it. And if I croak and my heirs dispose of it, by then my care that they may end up short by a few bux will be utterly zero.
I hardly suspect that the bell tenon will become a cause of future problems for this instrument -- unless it's dropped again, of course.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-02 23:03
Down under, being "pissed off" means considerably annoyed or frustrated (at a situation or person), and has nothing to do with "getting pissed".
According to http://www.davidappleyard.com/vp.htm the term is also brittish, and ONE American equivalent is "pissed".
Post Edited (2004-06-02 23:03)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-03 00:26
LeWhite,
What is the size of the chip? Does the chip go under the cork or it's just on the outside of the tenon shoulder. Chips on the (outside) tenon shoulder can be fixed and will be 100 percent undetectable (if done right). The problem is that 95% of technicians doesn't know how it's done or they choose wrong material or method to do the job. For me, repair that is 'damn close' is not good enough.
___________________________________________________
By the way grenadilla dust and grenadilla chips are two different things. It's like if you compare two different grades of sandpaper (100 grade with the ultra fine 2.000 grade).
Grenadilla dust and super glue is okay, but repair turns out glossy and is visible under different angles. I do not use regular super glue.
If the damage to the tenon is significant, (half of the tenon is missing) then and only then, other methods described by Gordon should be used.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
Post Edited (2006-02-19 01:15)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-03 01:09
I have found that SOME 'regular' superglue does not stick at all! Yes, there are many variants, with some a lot more suitable than others.
Vytas has gone into detail about chips/dust, and materials.
EVERY tiny aspect of this type of work has detail which is very important, especially for reliability and a good cosmetic finish. To cover all this detail is way beyond the scope of this forum.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-06-03 12:19
It's only about 1cm long, and goes about 2mm into the cork. I'm beginning to think I should send it to Gordon!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-03 21:39
A superb candidate for applying dental techniques as I described, optionally enclosed by a silver strip formed over the lip, for the security of added strength.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-04 06:52
On a Pupeschi system Conn plastic clarinet bought with the bell and broken off tenon glued to the lower body joint, I found it necessary to fabricate a black plastic tenon insert from a piece of plumbing pipe. After making a socket in the body joint and epoxying the replacement tenon in, it works great and is close to invisible. I paid little for this clarinet so was not too unhappy when I got it home and found it's problem.
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