 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-05-31 06:10
This is (sort of) related Nick's post about choosing a clarinet. (probably more related to my reply than to his post)
Since I got my clarinet 2 years ago, I've noticed that it seems to be more free-blowing, and the tone quality is darker and richer.
I know that in 2 years you'd expect your sound to improve, but I was wondering if it was anything to do with the clarinet itself improving.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-05-31 18:11
Rachel
Perhaps the pads are settling into their seats with use and providing a better seal than when they were new.
Hans
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-31 19:27
IMO & experience - past break-in, clarinets do NOT improve with time; however, a nice clarinet can be maintained, & therefore, retain it's quality.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-05-31 20:55
Yes, they "seem" to ! IMHO, not only does the player both improve AND become accoustomed [sp?] to the cl, most of the "problems" left in the horn by the maker and the seller have been at least somewhat alleviated by skillful repairers. I'd suggest that a critique by a knowledgable player BEFORE purchase would be beneficial. I work on my "played" horns frequently and get skilled help when I recognise its beyond my own abilities/knowledge. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-31 22:32
I agree completely with Don's points.
If the player is flexible enough to be taught, the new clarinet will teach the player to improve in his/her ability to get the best from the particular clarinet.
And yes, almost every clarinet is born with some problems, which good surgeons put right.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-01 00:03
My assumption is, as I think it should be, that upon purchase a competent technician goes through the horn & puts to rest any & all issues. This costs more, but one saves in the long run.
AND, from that point that the clarinet is properly setup & ready to play - the clarinet does not improve - but may be maintained in that state.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-01 01:01
Fair enough, but it does not happen THAT often, in my experience, in my locality, unless I am involved. And even then, it is not all buyers (BTW I don't sell) who are happy about immediate complete replacement of substandard, overthick, or over-diametered pads (not to mention the wide rage of other faults typical of saxophones which are particularly expensive to bring up to top standard) on so-called professional models!
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-01 01:50
Violins improve with age as does red wine ... eventually your clarinet will be a useless stump of ebony I'm afraid ...
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-06-01 01:52
diz wrote:
> Violins improve with age as does red wine ... eventually your
> clarinet will be a useless stump of ebony I'm afraid ...
Oh no!!! My baby's going to die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-01 02:07
Gordon, I don't know of things in New Zealand (I know of NZ per capita income statistics but have nothing to extrapolate those numbers with or compare them to ... )
Here in the States, Music Teachers (with the requisite knowledge)UNIVERSALLY plead with their students to select an instrument that suits their setup & physical makeup.
Upon selection of a suitable instrument, the solution (if the clarinetist can afford it) is to have a talented technician (basically) overhaul the instrument by replace or reinstalling pads, swedge & set key heights to tune, adjust spring tension, etc. To do everything that in a perfect world should have been done at the Factory. Of course, corks don't need to be replaced, but key silencing is always an issue. ETC.
That said, the instrument once gone over thoroughly has had it's weaknesses exposed & "solved".
At this point - the right way to buy an instrument IMO - the clarinet will get NO BETTER over time. We can merely maintain & fix wear inadequacies as they develop.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-01 05:03
Nothing in this world improves with age, it just gets older. Strings improve from being played, not from aging. Stuck in museums, for instance, they will and do deteriorate.
I know some makers have been releasing [new] wind instruments for years which the dealer has to adjust before displaying for sale. I've never, however, heard of one having to be overhauled. My definition of an overhaul being, a complete rebuild to as near new condition as possible.
As for corks not needing replacement on new horns - dream on. It's cheaper for the dealer to replace corks (bad glue) than it is to send it back to the factory. And the "factory" knows this. And the buyer pays for it :\
- ron b -
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-01 15:15
[quote=ron_b]Nothing in this world improves with ageI beg to differ. You forgot about the wonderful world of CHEESES!!!!!!
Just wanted to point out that you're forgetting some of the smelliest improvements known to mankind . . .
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-01 15:47
Yes, clarinets mellow like fine wine, up to the point at which they turn rancid and acidic (which is generally about the point at which I can afford to buy them). This is probably why my playing sounds rancid and acidic......
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-06-01 16:43
Ron, we see good & bad tenon & key cork installation on new instruments. I don't think I am dreaming about that.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-01 17:10
Well, I must back up and re-evaluate my stance, Alexi... I do enjoy cheese.
MW, that's what I meant to say, you're dreaming only if you believe NO corks need replacing (on new instruments). Actually, there are SOME good cork installations on new instruments 
Have a great JUNE, everyone!
- ron b -
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-06-01 22:05
I was under the impression that clarinets blow out. In fact I think i recall Mr. Smith telling me he replaces his horns every eight years or so.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-01 22:25
Whether clarinets suffer 'blow out' is highly debatable, and has been well covered in other threads. In my opinion almost all so-called 'blow out' just needs a GOOD technician. I think many players would probably agree.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-02 00:57
yes ... I'm all for violins (especially) being released from their museum prisons for that very reason.
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2004-06-03 00:19
Absolutely! All of my instruments are old. My acoustic guitar sounds better now than it ever did. As far as my clarinets go the youngest one is 52 years old and the older one is only 57 years old! They both have one thing in common... Great overhauls.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-03 02:02
Quite a few years ago...(87) I had the great fortune of playing Harold Wright's Buffet A .. which was given to him by Ralph McClane.
The bottom line was not only this a great instrument it had the fullest roundest tone of any clarinet I have ever played.
It was worked on extensively by Moennig in the early years...
According to Mr. Wright not only did he feel it improved with years but because of the way he played he helped it improve. I have seen numerous student's play pro models into terrible pitch problems...and
on the inverse coin ...
notice pro's tend to 'tame' their respective clarinets into perfect tuning through the way they voice the air and possibly even change the way the air interacts through the instrument!
I personally believe a pro with a good ear can certainly over a period of time improve the way a clarinet intonates...wheras a student with a bad ear will possible wreck the tuning on a clarinet that is otherwise satisfactory in terms of tuning.
David Dow
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-06-03 02:42
D Dow wrote:
> I personally believe a pro with a good ear can certainly over
> a period of time improve the way a clarinet intonates...wheras
> a student with a bad ear will possible wreck the tuning on a
> clarinet that is otherwise satisfactory in terms of tuning.
>
Students can have good ears too, you know. I am a student an I have an exceptional ear.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-03 04:24
D Dow, perhaps I am receiving you wrong, but you seem to be saying the clarinet reacts permanently is some acoustic way, that becomes intrinsic to the clarinet, on account of the way its player played it.
It sounds rather close to acoustic voodoo to me. I very much doubt that the WAY a player plays will have any effect on the clarinet itself whatsoever, only an effect on the way the player plays, i.e. learning to accommodate the clarinet's idiosyncrasies, and overcome its deficiencies.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-06-03 11:55
I spoke to Geoffrey Acton (he of the Acton vent on Boosey instruments) in the 1980s and he said the wood in old clarinets matures and this changes and improves their tone. Who am I to say he is wrong? But I did not find it credible then, and I explained to him why. I find it difficult to believe now.
A semi professional player once said to me that he had spoken to (I think it was) Dave James who ran the clarinet depatment in Booseys who said (apparently) that you could always tell when an instrument had been played by a loud player, because it becomes loud in itself, whereas an instrument played by a quiet player remains quiet. You can tell this (it was said) by playing the instruments, rather than listening to their owners play them. I found that hard to believe then and still do now. The difficulty is that both these people (one of whom I heard speak the point with my own ear) were important instrument makers, so who am I to question them?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-06-03 12:16
Gordon wrote: "I very much doubt that the WAY a player plays will have any effect on the clarinet itself whatsoever"
No, but it's really true! If you keep playing a certain note very flat, the tone hole will become smaller and smaller, until eventually it will close up altogether. So- if you play everything flat, the will be no holes left in the instrument. And of course, if you play constantly sharp, the instrument will disappear altogether. Or at least, that's what your colleagues hope will happen! :-)
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2004-06-03 15:37
Liquorice wrote: No, but it's really true! If you keep playing......
LOL AHHAHHAHHA!
I have played with a few musicians over the years who believed that an instrument played most of it's life by a good musician was definitely superior to an instrument played by an inferior musician.
I have heard real clarinetists play my instruments... I guess I have not played my clarinets long enough to ruin them yet! ;~)
JV
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-06-03 15:49
Ha! Some really neat ideas here on this topic. I always accepted the idea that clarinets eventually wore out. The band professor at our college told me he wore several out.
But, you've got me thinking.
It's a fact that string instruments (guitars etc.), if made with good wood and played for years actually break in and "mellow" with age and playing (once again made with good woods, esp. the soundboard).
If it's true that clarinets made with wood are better; and some say the ebonies of today are inferior to the older woods which also were left to "season" and dry longer in the old days. And if it's true that wood clarinets "sound" better than those made from artificial materials, then maybe (maybe?) the wood does "season" and mellow and thus the clarinet which is older but well cared for and kept up will ultimately sound better than worse? My favorite two Buffets are both over 100 years old, and man do they sound good!
Anyway, it's food for thought.
Kalakos
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-06-03 17:38
I agree Gordon. I think the BB posts are getting to be quite humorous.
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Author: clarinetcurious
Date: 2004-06-03 18:21
As always it is hard to give a definitive answer, but there are some fundamental differences between a resonant chamber instrument and a woodwind.
Guitars, violins an the like work by the following (grossly oversimplified) principle:
String vibrates->
bridge transmits sound spectrum to top with some filtering->
top vibrates amplifying some parts of the spectrum and damping others->
vibration of the top sends air pressure waves that hit the back->
some frequencies are again amplified/damped and reflected back->
a standing air pressure wave is set in the inside of the chamber which radiates the sound
Clarinets work on another (grossly oversimplified) principle:
reed vibrates setting an air column in motion (pressure wave)->
embouchure-mouthpiece-ligature filter spectrum->
the pressure wave reflects back at low-pressure node at end of tube->
standing air pressure wave is set and radiates the sound.
In the case of resonant chamber instruments the standing wave we hear is strongly dependent on the mechanical properties of the main body of the instrument (top and back). As the instrument is played and the wood continues to dry out the resonance chamber wears in particular ways changing its mechanical properties and consequently the timbre.
In the case of a clarinet the shape of the air column (bore) is more important for determining its timbre and this would probably change more with humidity and heat from one day to the next than with age. There must be some material dependance but it would in principle have a greater effect as you get closer to the mouthpiece end.
Finally, the thickness of the wood walls in a clarinet is HUGE compared to the one on string instrument tops/backs so that for a given amplitude the wall displacement is much smaller resulting in decreased wear.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-03 21:35
Or even more simplified, a violin is basically a piece of vibrating timber, and the clarinet is basically a piece of vibrating air.
(Both, of course, have a vibration initiator and sustainer)
Therefore the qualities of the violin associated with the timber, have absolutely no relevance to a clarinet.
It seems the flat earth society has invaded this forum.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-06-04 01:15
Has anyone visited their website?
I thought my cousin's 9-month-old baby knew nothing about basic logical and scientific principles!
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-06-04 03:33
Of course we may be comparing apples and oranges in comparing clarinets with string instruments. But, what makes me curious is why the best woods are used and usually sound better than plastic, metal, or other materials. All other things being equal (ie workmanship etc.) then the material the clarinet is made from should be irrevelant.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-04 03:45
Well, if clarinets wear out why do people like Anthony Pay make a living off of performing on period clarinets...
Why do players like Jost Michaels continue to use clarinets which are pre WW2 ?( he uses Oehler clarinets from the late 20s)
I geuss everyone here can afford to buy a new clarinet every 5 years...or when some repair tech tells you it blows out...boy what a pile of #$$%##
I also don't think an article on blow out will convince the thousands of pros on the issue that clarinets get worse and need to be replaced or even modified...
tells you something about a consumer driven culture...
I geuss this could apply to mouthpieces as well..but I don't think players like Drucker are going to toss their Chedeville Lelandais pieces away either....
David Dow
Post Edited (2004-06-04 03:53)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-06-04 04:07
"...All other things being equal (ie workmanship etc.) then the material the clarinet is made from should be irrevelant..."
Kalakos, that is almost certain to be true. It so happens that the other parameters are seldom equal.
Grenadilla timber is used primarily because of its dimensional stability, because it can be accurately machined, because its surface can be made smooth and relatively kind to pads, because the wear on machining tools is not excessive, because the dust created during manufacture is relatively non-toxic, and because it is hard enough that the mechanism can be securely mounted - all engineering considerations. I guess players without engineering nous began imagining all sorts of other reasons, and said them enough times to for them eventually to be believed.
That may not be entirely true, but it must be fairly close. :-)
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-04 04:41
David Dow said
Well, if clarinets wear out why do people like Anthony Pay make a living off of performing on period clarinets...
I'd be mildly surprised if he's playing on a period clarinet actually made in the 1700s ... according to booklets that accompany CDs with him performing (I'm thinking Hogwood CDs) he plays on copies of period instruments ...
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-06-04 04:41
Hi: This is a neat thread. I've sometimes wondered why delrin or some such material wouldn't work as well. I know from making some instruments (stringed) and from reading about making them and woods, that what you said about the stability of the wood is absolutely true. Boxwood was also a fairly good material because of its ease of working and being less prone to splitting I've heard. But I have had a few clarinets of hard rubber etc. and they just never sounded as good as my old Buffets (and one Jean Marbeau). I like this topic so much, I was just mentioning it to my wife, and she said something interesting. I was wondering about carbon filaments and ebony dust and resins making a stronger, less prone to cracking wood for clarinets. I had told her about some of the comments people made. She said that wood has a cellular structure, (ie spaces), and that would make the man made materials different from the natural wood materials.
Another interesting idea, and this one from a non musician, non builder.
Best,
John
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-06-04 05:17
Diz wrote: "I'd be mildly surprised if he's playing on a period clarinet actually made in the 1700s ... according to booklets that accompany CDs with him performing (I'm thinking Hogwood CDs) he plays on copies of period instruments ..."
That's true. But i've got two CD's of Eric Hoeprich playing on a ca. 1790 clarinet by August Grenser. After 200+ years it doesn't sound bad!
I do have a clarinet that's "blown out", and I can tell you why. After 13 years of playing the wood in the right hand joint has shrunk. This makes the bore bigger. The joint is now too wide for the left hand joint tenon socket. No matter how much cork you put on it still "wiggles". I suppose it's repairable somehow, but having a "wide-bore" right hand joint has definitely affected to the way the instrument plays (and not for the better!)
All of the professional oboists that I know change their instruments every 6-8 years. And you thought clarinetists were bad!
Post Edited (2004-06-04 05:18)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2004-06-04 06:00
In my experience, the bottom line is that dimensions somewhere in the bore or elsewhere usually change as a result of the wood moving over time. It certainly has been measurable over time with the clarinets that I've owned and others that I've measured. Either that's a good thing or a bad thing depending how it changes and depending whether the player adapts favorably or unfavorably to those changes.
For instance, Marcellus played a 1957 Buffet/Moennig A clarinet until he retired from Northwestern in the early 90's. It obviously changed in a direction he liked although he said it had lost a lot of it's initial resistance. On the other hand he went through numerous Bb clarinets while in the Cleveland orchestra because they had changed and didn't "hold" the sound as they once did.
I still maintain that the chances of the player changing their concept or ideal is by FAR less likely than the instrument changing. That is why so many professionals (at least where I've come from) change instruments. They find something better because they perceive a deficit in what they are presently playing because the instrument changes in a way not to their liking.
By the way, Drucker's Lelandais was periodically "touched up" by E. Matson over many years. And his clarinets were changed out too.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2004-06-04 06:08)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-06-04 10:52
Kalakos wrote:
> I was wondering about carbon filaments and ebony
> dust and resins making a stronger, less prone to cracking wood
> for clarinets.
You pretty much describe a Buffet Greenline there ...
> She said that wood has a cellular structure, (ie
> spaces), and that would make the man made materials different
> from the natural wood materials.
Different - yes. Acoustically different? The difference is miniscule.
Grenadilla became the wood of choice only when boxwood and pearwood was no longer mechanically strong enough to withstand the numerous holes put in the body to accomodate all the keys and "extra" notes.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-04 17:40
I know about Drucker having touched up his Lelandais because my teacher Harold Wright did the same to his Chedeville as well...however, Mr. Wright felt that blow out does not happen in all cases...if so he said
'then it would apply to mouthpieces as well.'
However, it seems that somehow we disgressed from the concept that maybe 'clarinets can imrove.' this I doubt but a good instrument should certainly keep playing beautifully if not outright improve.
I have a set of Recital which have large amounts of wood and they play great...maybe smaller or thinner walled tubes age faster!
David Dow
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-06-04 18:40
All I know is the more people believe in blow out, the more likely I am to be able to pick up some pro's ex-clarinets. So I say spread the word!!!!!
(hehehehe) ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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