 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-05-28 05:13
I am not an experienced sax player, but I have played a little here and there since high school. But I am trying to learn more and get a little more professional about this instrument.
What are the tuning issues for sax? Just as we might assume that an average clarenet will tend to a flat low F and a sharp clarion C, will be most in tune about the low Bb/clarion F, will tend to growls at the clarion A, and will be a little sharp in the throat, are there typical alto sax tuning issues?
I was playing a Yamaha SX-875 today in a music store and the upper register tended about 15 cents sharp, when the lower register played in tune. If I lipped the upper register down, I tended toward a growling undertone around F. I have similar issues with my own 1960 eBay Evette Schaeffer, though it has many more tuning irregularities. I'm using a Hite Premier mouthpiece and ~3 Van Dorens.
Comments? Do saxes have certain common problems? Or is the standard answer that I just need to proctice more.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-05-28 07:44
Throw the tuner in the bin and use your ears. How the hell do expect to play an unfamiliar horn with digitally 'perfect' tuning. Use your ears, listen to the pitch and stop relying on some machine and you will be a better player.
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Author: Jonnyc
Date: 2004-05-28 09:14
My main instrument is the sax, I have found that each of my saxes has it's own little quirks on tuning.
In switching between saxes, I occasionaly need to watch my embouchure to ensure I'm not playing for example a soprano embouchure on a tenor sax.
One tip I have found very useful regarding tuning is the advice on www.saxontheweb.net
On there is an article on playing a note with the mpc alone, to check that the embouchure is correct.
Cheers
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-05-28 13:04
I agree with Mark Pinner's comment; i.e., ears are more important than a tuner, especially for sax.
Hans
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-05-28 14:11
Mark P etc has/have said it very well. Sax playing in tune w: others is a separate subject! When [trying] to play "classical" alto sax, I like to listen to some pros' technique on "Pictures -- Exhibition", Old Castle, and "L'Arlesienne" et al, for "advice" on vibrato, attacks and tone quality. I have a Mark 6 alto, and find that Selmer mps of that time period, C and D facings, are best for tuning and tonality. To me its more difficult to find a good [classic OR jazz] sax mp than for clarinet, I only infrequently try any more ! The YahooGroup site Mouthpiece Work deals more with sax mps than cl. It and Saxontheweb provide the best 'net advice I know of. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2004-05-28 14:46
MP wrote, "How the hell do expect to play an unfamiliar horn with digitally 'perfect' tuning"
One very effective way to become familiar with your instruments individual tuning characteristics is to use that tuner which may have just been tossed into the trash bin. After you have learned which notes need "special attention", then it will be up to your ears to play in tune with others who are similarly challenged. So, if you are just beginning to play a new saxophone, go and retrieve that tuner and use it until you have learned your instruments intonational tendencies. Then, put it aside (don't throw it away--it may be useful later) and rely more on listening and adjusting--that is, lipping "unruley" notes either up or down as needed.
For what it may be worth, I usually try to tune my saxs so that my flatest note (usually B4) is relatively in tune--and can be "lipped" up--and then rely on lipping the grossly sharp notes down (which is easier than lipping up). It is also important to note know the saxophone requires a much more relaxed embouchure and softer set-up than the clarinet. Using a reed that is too hard is the most common mistake that clarinetists make when switching to sax. Think of a more double lip approach on sax, rather than the firm clarinet lip set.
Ulitmately, good intonation is really good "cooperation" with the other members of your ensemble--and that involves using your ears and not your tuning meter. After all, it is much better to play in tune than "be" in tune.
Incidently, if it would be any help, here are my personal mouthpice choices:
Soprano--Anello (Milwaukee, WI); Winslow lig.
Alto--vintage "Hollywood" Gregory or Selmer C* "Jazz"; Winslow ligs.
Tenor--Guardala "Studio" metal; Winslow lig.
(all Selmer saxophones)
Post Edited (2004-05-28 14:59)
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-05-28 22:12
Well, hah!
I admit to being initially miffed that my tuner and my question got tossed in the trash bin so quickly. But I lived through it. You all have answered my question quite nicely. I won't worry about it. I am pretty sure that my old ES is a clunker and I know that the new Yamaha is a real pleasure.
In my defense I love playing sax just because it somehow feels more like singing. I do know that hearing the pitch is really important, and sax allows me to hear and sing the notes.
Thank you, all.
WT
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-29 12:41
1. If you use a clarinet embouchure on a sax you will definitely tend well sharp on the high notes.
2. If you use the higher breath pressure that is needed for higher notes on the clarinet, on the sax, you will go way sharp.
The embouchure and breath pressure on sax are far more consistent throughout the range than for clarinet.
Unless the sax has a mechanism for correcting the venting (most sops - where the problem is greater - do, but not many others do) then there may either be a slight tendency for the third C# to be sharp, or the second one flat, or both.
Where the lower end of an air column has a single open tone hole followed by a closed one, such as F#, G, and (especially D), there may be a tendency for flatness, but if a sax is acoustically well designed this is not a problem.
In a poorly designed sax there may be anomalies in the low C# and C, because of acoustic effects of the bend.
But my knowledge is incomplete in this area. A CAPABLE player with a SAX embouchure, using a well-designed and setup sax, has few intonation problems. The compromises in designing a clarinet are far greater, on account of it overblowing a 12th.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-05-29 14:03
Gordon,
Re: "The compromises in designing a clarinet are far greater, on account of it overblowing a 12th."
FWIW, the fundamentals overblow into their 12ths (instead of their octaves) and thereafter into their tierces.
Regards,
Hans
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