 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GregK
Date: 2004-05-23 15:58
Hi all, just found your forum here. I dont know much about clarinets but i have an Eb clarinet by JTL. I am uncertain as to the date it was built and i am hoping someone here might be able to help.
It is an Eb albert system clarinet, it uses some kind of twine / string instead of cork at the section joints. I am guessing that cork didnt come into use until later? Or was the string something used on cheaper instruments in its day?
There are markings on the bell but they are very work out, i cant entirely make them out but heres what i have figured out:
J.T.L.
83
1ERE GTE
I am not certain that the last line is even correct, also the 3 empty lines between the top and lower two lines also contain letters. I can only guess at what those letters are since they are so badly worn.
If it makes any difference J.T.L. is also stamped into the thumbrest and ligature. Also below JTL stamp on the ligature there is "Brevet SGD.G." which i believe simply is the french equivalent to trademark.
I found a very similar instrument picture at the following link, the only thing different about the one pictured is that it appears to use cork, but that could have been added later....
http://www.1stbrigadeband.org/Instrument.php?id=71A&page=Clarinets.php&title=Jerome+Thibouville-Lamy+E+flat+Clarinet
If anyone can help me find out some info on this instrument i would greatly appreciate it! Thank you much!
Greg
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-05-23 22:23
The First Brigade Band's picture is not of an Albert Clarinet. It's a Müller of the earliest type, as it has no rings. Two rings were added around 1825, eliminating the RH side key. This simplified RH fingering considerably. E. Albert began building Clarinets in 1846; the "Albert System" had two RH rings (later adding two LH ringa for better intonation), three R1 "trill" keys, the "patent C#" alternative F#/C# fingering, and rollers on two each of the L4 and R4 keys.
I own a Jerome Thibouville-Lamy E-flat Clarinet similar to yours. Mine has the RH "spectacle" rings and no RH side key. Based on best information (although not much) and some plausible sssumptions, mine may have been made around 1880. Yours might be from about the same time, perhaps earlier. A few makers continued to produce some of the older styles long after better fingering designs appeared. Evidently, many players of older Clarinets didn't want to change their habits.
Regards,
John
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Author: GregK
Date: 2004-05-24 12:15
Thank you for the replys! I guess i had the clarinet systems mixed up heh, theres a number of different ones its hard to get to know them all.
What you guys have said pretty much confirms what i thought, that is was made sometime between 1860-1890. Also I was informed that the string was only used as a temporary substsitute when the cork needed to be replaced.
Thanks much for the info,
Greg
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-05-24 17:11
I don't know of any French Clarinet makers using string on joints that late, but maybe I'm wrong. String is still used on many recorders and other instruments (bassoons, even). Waxed dental floss will do a good job if you want to replace the string. Cork does it better.
Another First Brigade Band webpage, http://www.1stbrigadeband.org/Clarinets.php#71A, says Clarinet HMMF 71A (the one that's like yours) was made between 1850 and 1880. Sounds good to me. The page also says, however, that the instrument has "silver keys and rings." This is especially interesting as the thing has no rings.
Regards,
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-24 17:30
GregK said:
"Also I was informed that the string was only used as a temporary substsitute when the cork needed to be replaced."
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Correct.
John said:
"I don't know of any French Clarinet makers using string on joints that late, but maybe I'm wrong."
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I've never run into either.
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For the record: when we wrap anything around a tenon we are trying to create a (temporary, I hope) connection between joints (or barrel, bell or mouthpiece).
If you wrap too much of anything around a tenon and then try and make the connection one should avoid situations where the tenon male or tenon receiver are OVERloaded. Of course, this is also true with cork if it is too thick.
FWIW - many clarinet technicians work on the guiding principle that for Bell connections : "if it don't fall off or jiggle - don't repace the cork. Clean the cork & make it look presentable." Point is that a L/J tenon cork that connects very freely won't get repairer in trouble - whereas tight cork connections cause friction & fingers to be pointed later - even if actually unrelated.
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Author: GregK
Date: 2004-05-24 18:07
Oh that is one thing i neglected to notice in the link i posted. My clarinet does in fact have rings over the last two finger holes which tie to a key which is just off to the side between the 4th and 5th finger holes which opens when ever both of the last holes are not closed. Does that mean that maybe mine was produced later?
If my description was no good, the clarinet have the same key system as picture 71B on that same website.
Sorry about the mistake on my part..
Thanks again,
Greg
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-05-24 18:18
Possibly what is my oldest Muller/Albert is a Ch Jerome [L P B], only 2 rings [L J] 3 trills, 2 and 2 L J large-hole keys. The bell however [maybe not orig?] has embellishment [can describe if asked] and the J T L logo. I have another very-similar, no-name?, but with "inlaid" [metal] toneholes! Also one of those modern-antique display models with red string for corks! Re: string, well said mw. I reduced some too-tight corks [by a repair? shop] recently, where the clist recognised that too tight might cause tenon or [worse] socket damage. Re bells, they crack easily, and DON'T need to be very tight anyway ! Take care. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-05-24 18:34
Greg: That means yours is a later Müller, designed around 1825 or so. The rings make unnecessary the right side key on the lower joint, simplifying fingering. It's just like mine (except I hope yours does not have a cracked barrel).
It may have been made a bit later, but perhaps not. Likely not much later, anyway. 1880 still seems a plausible date to me.
Regards,
John
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Author: GregK
Date: 2004-05-24 18:43
I went ahead and took some pics of mine incase it helps identify it. Looks like i got all the info i need so far, but since i already put these pics up here they are:
http://home.comcast.net/~gkemp5500/home.html
Thanks again,
Greg
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