 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-05-16 18:13
Please do not blow up at me for this post. I know it may seem like an obvious question, but it makes me wonder that perhaps this is contributing a lot to my own tonguing woes. When tonguing, should you physically say "tu" (or another vowel, like "tee") when playing or just think it? Just as you would when talking, yet keeping the embouchure immobile? I am convinced my tonguing problem is more of a weak embouchure, but perhaps this is contributing to it that I am moving my tongue, but not actually saying "tu". I also find it very hard to keep the middle of my tongue high while just moving the tip a tiny distance...is this lack of saying the vowel a contributing factor in this problem as well?
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Author: bkmorton
Date: 2004-05-16 19:03
I think of "Toe" because it keeps your throat open and relaxed. "Tu" keeps the tongue in the way of the air stream.
When I tongue fast, I think of "ta" or "da" and keep my tongue close to the reed.
Of course I may be doing wrong:)
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-05-16 19:15
Well, you see, I'm not actually so concerned with what vowel I am saying. What am I asking here is should I be physically saying that vowel in order to tongue? Should I be saying, for example, "tu", or just thinking it?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-05-16 20:49
I don't think you should be saying it or thinking it.
Saying it would be wrong, because to say it you have to connect your tongue with your palette, which you shouldn't do when you play. The tongue should only lightly touch the reed.
Thinking it, in my opinion, would encourage far too much movement of the tongue. Only the smallest movement is necessary, and anything larger will only interfere with clean tonguing.
The best thing to do is to think in terms of "release" rather than "attack". Blow a long note. Move your tongue very slowly towards the reed until it touches and stops the sound. This is the beginning of your tonguing position. Now think "eed", but only move the tongue a tiny distance away from the reed, enough for the sound to start again.
I'm not sure I can explain much more in writing. I'd have to hear you before giving any more advice. Perhaps it's something you can discuss with your teacher?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-05-16 21:09
Also when STARTING a note from a rest, hold your tongue on the reed. Start blowing air before the note is to be sounded and "release" (as liquorice said) the reed for the note to sound. I've noticed by turning the volume up to an ungodly level that when you hear a pro start a phrase after resting, you'll hear a short breathy sound just before the note sounds (which leads me to believe that they are starting the airflow before to make sure they have the proper support).
Also, I think of "la". After reading one of Ken Shaw's posts on tonguing, he says to move the tongue in a 'la' syllable without touching the reed and then slowly move the tongue closer and closer to the reed until you just knick it enough to make a tonguing sound. It sounds clean and is easier for me to tongue faster than a "ta" or "tu" or any other "t" sound.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=32780&t=32715
is the post.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-05-16 21:35
Saying any vowel involves movement of the vocal cords, which should not be done while playing -- unless you're trying to play a duet with your own voice (not easy, but not impossible).
I am not the greatest or fastest at tonguing, but my attempt is to place the tongue on the reed with only enough pressure to barely halt the airflow; then remove it and the sound begins.
I agree that keeping the pharynx open AS IF saying "O" is much better than any sort of closure. Regulate air pressure with diaphragm and abs, not the throat.
Of course, I could be all wet.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-16 23:46
At risk of repetition:
The concept of the 't' is get you to have air pressure built up in your mouth before releasing your tongue.
The concept of the vowel sound (which is different in every dialect) is in an attempt to get the back of your tongue in a suitable position. Without getting bogged down in detail of resonant cavities within the mouth, this is hardly an issue as long as the back of the tongue is not up near the top of your mouth, and your throat is open.
The concept of a vowel SOUND is bad in that involves the vocal chords being put into action - i.e. humming. The concept of WHISPERING the syllable is therefor far more appropriate.
The concept of a spoken or whispered syllable is also bad, as Liquorice said, in that it has the association of the tongue moving too far away from the reed.
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Author: clarinetpro
Date: 2004-05-17 05:23
Try "dah-dit" in sequences of five. c,c,c,c,c...... or then, c,d,e,f,g...... this is a tongue strengthening excercise that works well. ie... 1st c is dah... second is dit..third is dah, fourth is dit and fifth is dah.... and so forth. Quick tongue guide reminders:
strength of ambouchere
endurance of tongue
strong breath support
fingers timed to tongue
responsive set up (mouthpiece/reed combo)
relax!
Oh... have you ever skipped a rock on the water?..... Imagine tonguing that way... it's great imagery. Tongue over the top of the note not in the dead center.... think about that some...... it's a feeling from imagery.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-05-17 08:10
Here, in Paris, we say "vous" unless we know the reed very well.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-17 15:51
I think the person seeking advice is not quite in the echelons that needs yet to worry about 1000 nuances of sound.
And may I humbly suggest that 1000 nuances of sound (apart from those associated with volume) may be more in the imagination of the player, rather than what the independent listener hears, judging from the clarinet playing I have heard from any one person.
But then again, my perceptions of sound may not be up there in the 99.99th percentile, so does that disqualify me from comment?
Personal confession: If I move my tongue around to different vowel sound positions (within reason, barring constrictions which introduce destructive 'turbulent flow'), the tone remains the same, unless I let my imagination run.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2004-05-17 17:22
I am opposed to the concept of "saying" anything. This concept can get you all tied up and moving stuff that doesn't need to move.
99% of the tongueing problems I see in my students are caused by excess movement somewhere, mostly in the jaw. I had one student who was "vocalizing" every note, almost as if he were saying the notes.
My advice is, was, and shall ever be - hold your embochure extremely steady, as if you were playing long tones and move the tongue as lightly and evenly as you can.
I usually have students start lessons with long slurred scales, warming up the tone and embouchure. I have them focus the tone and form the embochure for the best tone. Then I move to light even tongueing, playing scales with four tongued notes per scale degree.
The students think we're working on scales, but we're really working on a light staccato! It's amazing the speed, accuarcy and lightness of the tongue I can get them to produce, even the youngest students.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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