 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2004-05-06 01:37
Dude...you have too much money to spend....$6600 is a car for crying out loud....and you're not even out of high school? Are you paying or your parents? If you're working toward the purchase....more power to you...
JG
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-05-06 01:57
Igloo ... go for it, but I recommend you look at the Buffets first ... they are fine bass clarinets (in my experience).
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Author: poopsie
Date: 2004-05-06 04:19
I can't say much for the bass clarinet, but the plastic reeds are not very good for anything but marching or pep band. Regular reeds are much better for concerts or other performances, but don't go with the plastic reed unless you are going to do a lot with your pep or marching bands.
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2004-05-06 05:05
Much debate occurs between the Selmer and Buffet camps when it comes to professional bass clarinets. I myself play a Selmer 37. For me, it provided a better tone. I also preferred the neck angle and key mechanisms of it over the Buffet. That's not to say that Buffet doesn't make a fine bass clarinet, it just wasn't the best for me. Try out both and see how it goes.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-05-06 07:59
i've tried both the selmer 37 and the buffet 1193 and overall i liked the buffet better. the selmer is louder and have a bit more of an aggressive tone, which can be a plus. for me it wasn't. the buffet has a more calrinety sound (can't think of any other way to explain it). the neck angle was MUCH better on the buffet for me. if you play sax and double on bass clarinet you will probanbly prefer the selmer neck though. the selmer has 2 low D keys, the buffet has 3 (the selmer don't have the thumb D i think). the selmer has the G#/C# mechanism, the buffet doesn't. to me it seems like the buffet is the better choice for clarinet players (much more gentle and warmer sound) and the selmer is better for sax players that double on bass clarinet (neck shape, aggressive sound like sax, G#/C# mechanism like on saxes). the buffet is also slightly cheaper which is important too.
i played Bb buffets and Bb selmers, and they felt pretty much the same. not so with bass clarinets. the first time i tried the selmer it felt kind of weird. the entire mechanism feels different than the buffet. that was a few years ago though so maybe it's different now i don't know.
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-05-06 08:39
I don't think it is anyone's business who is paying for what. Parents or kids, so what, its between them, he wasn't asking if it was ethical to have parents buying horns.
I have some extensive work as a orchestral bass clarinetist. I have also worked extensively with the Buffet 1193-3 and the Selmer 37. My personal preference is for the Buffet Bass. It does a have a more clarinet like sound. I understand where one can feel the selmer is to agressive. Selmers in the past have been the leaders in making bass clarinets but buffet have really come into the market. Several leading orchestral clarinetists, including Laurie Bloom, the CSO's amazing bass clarinetist uses buffet and swears by them.
Certain repairment will not work on selmer bass clarinets because of the quality of the key work and they way it functions and having to repair it. If you call brannen woodwinds im sure they would explain to you in depth why they won't work on them.
I like the Selmer C star mouthpiece, nothing else. Rather ignorant I know, sorry if it works it works. Vandoren 3.5 are good if you know the proper way to work on them. The Optimum ligature is pretty nice as well.
I guess it's preference like anything else. Make sure you use good rep to compare them. Whip out the grand canyon suite, mahler 2, the strauss tone poems... They are what the bass is utilized for thus they will show the true qualities of the instrument.
Good luck with your quest.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-05-06 12:44
The only way to know is to try them both and see what works for you. I personally prefer the Selmer 37. If you like the more angled "Bay-style" neck, you can get one of these from Selmer. I have no complaints on the keywork of the Selmer and know quite a few repairmen who have spoken highly of it. Clark Fobes and Walter Grabner make great bass mouthpieces. Have fun in your search. You can't go wrong with either bass (no matter what anyone tells you).
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-06 12:59
I can pick holes in the Selmer mechanism, but also the Buffet's. Surely Brannens are being a bit 'precious' here.
I've met more problems with Buffets splitting.
Nobody has yet commented on the professional Yamaha.
I haven't seen one for a long time, and that was the only one I've seen, so I've forgotten. The mechanism seemed to be an exercise in simplicity compared with Selmer's effort.
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2004-05-06 13:59
for the kind of money the bass cost i would go slow and easy. you can order on line and they will extend a 10 to 15 test period. if you can get to the store that would be a better move.
remember fest is coming up in DC. if you can attend they will all be available for you to play to your heart content. fest is a great place to play and buy a new horn, the deals are there to be had.›
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-05-06 14:42
Disclosure -- I'm a Buffet and Selmer dealer. Therefore I'm not expressing a preference on this.
Igloo, you need to go try them for yourself, or better, work with somebody whose judgement you trust (teacher, local professional) to help you. Laying out $6000+ for an instrument, it is worth a couple hundred to get the consultation and selection services of an expert.
I'm not sure what "extensive work" LeOpus has done, but let me illustrate the diversity of opinions out there from professionals with whom I've had the privilege to work and/or study. Just in the Daniel Bonade Clarinet Quartet, I play an 1193, as does Dan Spitzer. David Hattner and Meighan Stoops both play 37s. Dan, David and Meighan are extremely accomplished professional orchestral players, and are evenly split. Michael Lowenstern, a certified monster on the instrument, plays Selmers. Donald Ambler, who spent a career as Bass Clarinetist in the Denver Symphony and helped launch a number of careers himself, has played Buffets for decades.
All these players, including Lawrie, could make a radiator with a Buffet Crown mouthpiece sound great. And, regardless of the instrument, they all sound like themselves. The bass clarinet is just a tool. This is where a pro whom you respect can help you find the right tool to accomplish your goals.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-05-06 14:44
Between the few Buffet 1193, Selmer 37, and Yamaha low-C basses (and one Amati 692S) I've tried in the last few years, I'd go with the Selmer.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-05-06 14:50
Our local university professor--DMA Eastman, NYC experiance, recently Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, etc (he's "been around")--is a devoted Selmer bass clarinet artist who prefers his model 33 over the 37 simply because of the sound it can generate. He has tried the new Buffets (1193s) and likes them, but says his Selmer plays with more authority (louder, or as he says, "you can stand on it") in the louder ensemble settings.
Whatever--if you find a Selmer model 33, it might be well for you to try it. In any case, you should also give the Buffets (1193-2 low C model) a try as well. I like mine, and with my Walter Grabner mpc, Vandy 3.5s and Optimum lig, I can put out as much sound as anyone.
Bottom line--in any case, you will be spending a lot of bucks. Try as many instruments as you can, be patient and buy the one that plays best for you. Personally, FWIW, I picked the Buffet that tuned best on B4 and C5 and played the G#5 and A5 with the most ease. Also, try to take it out "on approval" and audition it in a live ensemble as well. Sometimes instruments that sound great in the music shoppe practice room do not sound as good in the concert hall. Just a thought.............
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-05-06 15:04
William's advice is excellent --- but I'd temper it with the observation that we all tend to be nostalgic about those 'great older horns' --- I'm as gulity of this as anyone. Back about 15 years ago when I was in the market (sort of) for a new bass clarinet, I tried a whole bunch of Selmer 33s and 35s (the low-Eb version of the 33) -- and I didn't find a single one I liked. They all seemed to me to be very stuffy and resistant, and had some intonation 'issues' also. At around the same time I test-played nine or ten Selmer Mk. VI tenor saxes (which was then the benchmark for saxes as, for example, the Buffet R-13 clarinet is today), and....I bought a Couf (Keilwerth) tenor instead because it just played and sounded better than all those Selmers. The point I'm laboriously trying to make is: remove the rose-colored nostalgia glasses and try the new basses too, don't get fixated on just the older ones. I think everyone will agree the new 37s have a sturdier and better-designed mechanism than the old ones, aside from considerations of sound, projection, response and intonation.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-05-06 17:13
I've played both Selmers and Buffets for years and used to always prefer the Selmer (I owned a model 37). I now prefer the Buffet 1193. It has an even response, lighter key action, and a more angled mouthpiece. Pure bass clarinetists probably would prefer the Selmer. I spend most of my time on the Bb/A clarinets, and the Buffet just seems to be easier to play if you are more of a clarinetist that a bass clarinetist and play the bass mainly for doubling. Oh, and I also like the extra thumb key on the Buffet (3 right thumb keys total).
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-05-06 22:12
It is a pity, but if you compare brands before you buy, in part you are likely to be influenced by the effects of a new instrument NOT being in an ideal state of adjustment. With the assistance of an experienced bass player you
just might be able to identify what is easily correctable.
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Author: CJB
Date: 2004-05-07 07:52
Gordon
Re the Yamaha low C bass - I purchased one just under a year ago. I tried the Selmer and the Buffet as well. Whilst for me the Selmer was by far the nicest instrument I couldn't get hold of a 2nd hand one in a 12 month search and a new one would have needed another couple of years saving! I came down against the Buffet mostly due to the keywork, it just wasn't comfy for someone with hands as small as mine.
I've been really pleased with the Yamaha - it had a number of set up issues and a middle tenon that became increasingly wobbly during the 1st 6 months. I returned it to Yamaha in the UK and can't fault the service I had from them.
This of course is purely from the perspective of a keen amateur who plays far more Eb than bass.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-05-07 10:44
Igloo Bob wrote:
> How much of a “market” for lack of
> a better word, is there for a Bass Clarinetist looking for a
> music scholarship?
Appropriate to Bass Clarinet? That came up a couple of years ago both here and on the mailing list and the consensus was:
Zero. Zip. Nada.
Your going to be playing soprano clarinet with excursions on bass clarinet, not the other way und. Fair or unfair, bass clarinet at the college level is a seond-class citizen.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-05-07 15:02
I am a clarinetist, but in college, my "secondary" instrument was the horn. I had the good fortune to study for my entire junior year with John Barrows, former (and founding member) hornist of the legendary New York Woodwind Quintet.
(In 1964, John Barrows retired from his longtime NYC playing career and accepted the position of Professor of Horn at the Univeristy of Wisconsin-Madison)
So, here's "my take" on playing the horn. The biggest problem the hornist encounters is in playing the correct harmonic as they are so "close"--that is to say, so many notes can be played with the same fingering that it is difficult to always hit the right one. In practice, the player must be able to look at the written note, hear it and be able to play it. For example, if you use the correct fingering on clarinet, you will almost always produce the right pitch--unless you sqwauk, of course. But on the horn, you can almost play the entire C major scale from C5 to C6 using no rotors, just your lip. Control is the issue, but if you have a great sense of pitch and good embouchure control, you will be ok. As I had already played trumpet in high school (along with the clarinet and sax) I found this to be a minimal challenge.
Then, there is the embouchure. Do not use the normal trumpet mouthiece "straight on" position, but rather, set the rim of the mouthpiece on your lower lip and use about 90% of your upper lip in the cup to produce the buzz. This will feel strange at first, but will allow you to play the lower notes (C4 and below) with much more ease and control--as well as the higher notes, I might add. JB, in his prime, had the reputation one of the four greatist hornists in the world, and this is the embouchure he taught and played with.
His method of articulation also went kind of "against the rules", but it worked for him. He taught us to tongue, not on the roof of the mouth (as a trumpet), but directly into the lips as if you were "spitting a piece of paper". All the times that I heard him play live on campus--in his teaching studio or on stage--he never missed or "cracked" a note. His "into the lips" method of articulation worked for him--and it worked for me as his student.
As an "aside", he once offered to give me a double (Alexander) french horn if I would switch my major from the clarinet--darn, talk about not opening the door of opportunity................so, I am still a clarinets/saxist with constant reed hassels. But I continue to play the trumpet (and occassionally, the horn) when I teach. It is a marvelous instrument to play if you have the "ear" and the embouchure control to make it work. Good luck and have fun--that's what it is all about, anyhow.
Question--how do you make a saxophone sound like a french horn?
Answer--stick your hand in the bell and miss a lot of notes.
(John Barrows told me that one. His viruosity was only exceeded by his sense of humor)
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-05-07 15:13
???
In all my years of playing bass clarinet, I've somehow missed the connection between it and the french horn (other than the fact that french horns frequently play offbeats to my on beats). In fact, I still don't see the connection.
Did someone post to the wrong thread? Twice?
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2004-05-07 16:13
Don --
With an information-dense thread such as this, it's easy to overlook additional, subsidiary questions asked part way through the thread. A couple of posts up, Igloo Bob (originator of this thread) mentioned that he would be playing the (French) horn next year, that it was a new instrument for him, and that he didn't get much help from a horn bulletin board. William (a regular -- and IMHO valuable -- contributor) graciously jumped in with information and advice. The double posting was an accident since corrected by him.
Todd W.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-07 16:38
Just some random thoughts to this or any similar situation ---
It would seem that a Music Store within a couple of hours drive would be accessible to you. It seems logical to take a ride & take someone (hopefully a professional) along with you. Try out many Bass Clarinets.
If the former was NOT possible (for whatever reason) it would seem to me that you need to examine other alternatives as shipping a bunch of Bass Clarinets around can get very expensive right off. I don't think trying one of each Model (Selmer or Buffet) is sufficient - you need to try more.
How about hiring a professional Bass Clarinetist to pick one for you? This can be done even subject to the right to return instrument. Sometimes this is the ONLY way for people who are at a great distance from the retail seller.
Almost all the large Catalogue Sellers have an arrangement with a professional to pick Instruments (for an additional fee, which is payable with based upon that Pro's terms).
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-05-08 01:03
Thanks again, everyone, and a special thanks to William for the Horn advice. Mw, you said that trying one of each model would not be sufficient, why is that? If I played on two different copies of the same brand and same model, it's possible that they could sound different? Well obviously, I know they wouldn't sound the exact same, but I was unaware that a large amount of descrepancy could occur on the same model and brand.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-05-08 02:52
Igloo Bob, that is the most importnt thing when buying a clarinet, trying as many as you can. 2 clarinets of the same brand and model could be completely different! the sound can be different, but other important things can be different too, like intonation for example. just because it's a buffet 1193, or a selmer 37, doesn't automatically mean it is good. i'd say you must try at least 4-5 of each model. for Bb clarinet i would even say try at least 10, but the chance they will have 10 bass clarinets in the store is slim.
good luck.
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-05-08 08:18
Hm, that's interesting. Well I'll have to search around a bit, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not going to find much in the way of Bass Clarinets in the area. I live in Anchorage, the biggest town in Alaska, and we have 3 music shops, I believe, all relatively small, and I've never seen any Bass Clarinets at all in any of them. Heh, maybe if I walk in and ask them to order 10 Bass Clarinets so I can try them all and buy one, and do it extra nicely, they'll oblige. Oh, if only I were a woman and could use some of the feminine charm.
I'll be in Abilene, TX this summer, which should definitely put me closer to a store that has a sufficient stock of Bass Clarinets to try out. The only problem then, is, if I buy an instrument down there, I'll have to eventually bring it back up to Alaska when the summer ends. That could be unfortunate, especially with most Airline's less than stellar reputation with luggage. Another question - how do prices in local stores usually stack up against Woodwind-Brasswind's? At wwbw.com, the Selmer 37 is marked down from $9,669 to $6,595. If I were to find the same product in a store such as in Texas, would it be more likely that I'd be paying closer to the first price?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-05-08 08:57
well it would probably be closer to the second price, i would guess no more than 7,000$. if the stores in your area are buffet dealers they can order bass calrinets i'm pretty sure. wwbw usually have the lowest price inside the usa but i don't know all the stores of course. if i was you i would consider driving/flying to a big store like IMS or WWBW and choose a clarinet there.
i'll just say again i really recommend the buffet over the selmer.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2004-05-08 20:46
As to "how many horns of the same model should I try?", my former bass clarinet teacher (who plays with a major NYC orchestra) tried 15 Model 37s before settling on his final choice. In fact, if memory serves, he had a bass-clarinetist buddy in another city trying out horns for him too.
My experience: Got three brand-new R-13s from WWBW, and they were as different from each other if they were different makes entirely.
So yeah, there's that much of a difference (although I'm not expert enough to be 15-horns finicky).
Have fun, Igloo!! It sounds like a real adventure!
cheers
Doug R
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