 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2004-05-02 18:39
Here's a chance for you all to throw up your arms in horror as it's confession time for me...............
I've been playing for just over a year now and have recently realised that I'm not playing properly at all - I had a teacher for a few lessons to begin with but she didn't pick up on it .....................I'm actually playing the clarinet as if it were a recorder ...................I know, I know, but I didn't realise and actaully I do get a reasonable sound out of it, so I'm told !
I have been paying attention to my embouchure - my cheeks don't move at all when I'm playing and my tongue is ...................er .............no where near the reed !!!!
I played the recorder as a child and just adopted the same method more or less !
Does it really matter that much ????
I suppose I'll never get a really great sound if I don't learn to tongue ????
I'm only looking to play for pleasure not with a band or orchestra - just play alone with backing tracks - old music hall , 50's and 60's stuff for the old folks where I work.
Appreciate your views and how on earth I change it now ????
It's not practical for me to have lessons due to work committments so any advise to try myself would be appreciated.
Thanks
Sue - the recorder playing clarinetist !!!!!
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-05-02 19:29
No tongue? Are you sure?
I have never heard that recorder players do all their articulation with the airflow...surely you do use the tongue, by putting in in contact with your hard pallet (sp.?) and moving it away again?
I'm not a recorder player...can you tell?!
You will run into problems very soon if you never use your tongue, high notes in particular usually require some support for the airflow from the tongue.
Tongue position is also a vital issue in playing the clarinet, it can affect the way you sound dramatically.
As for tutoring yourself in tonguing...out of a book it will be very hard to get it correct. Some books give some good advice (Rosemary Lang, Thurston and a few others) but you really need someone to listen to how your doing it, in order to tell you if it's correct.
I'll be interested to read others point of view on this...
Danny.
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-05-02 19:29
You say your tongue is nowhere near the reed - so where is it then?!
I play recorders too, and when I began to play the clarinet I found that the reed seemed to get in the way of where I wanted to tongue (generally just behind my top front teeth), but now it seems quite normal to tongue on the reed and I don't really notice the difference! 
Joanna Brown
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-05-02 22:18
If you are using the standard "E" tongue configuration and single lip embouchure, Sue, your tongue and reed will UNAVOIDABLY get acquainted... I believe that's what has some of us puzzled
If, on the other hand, your tongue is making an "O" shape, characteristic of recorder players, you should be having all sorts of insurmountable difficulties producing something close to a reasonable clarinet tone. As Danny says, your high notes should be just this side of impossible for you, if that's what you're doing. Your former teacher likely wasn't with you long enough to observe your earlier development and give you direction -- sooo....
You need to understand that any bulletin board is a far cry from a good one-to-one teacher/mentor. However, in your situation here's as good a place as any you'll find anywhere on earth to get assistance. We do care and, even if not always successful... "we do try".
Now, since you otherwise seem to describe a good embouchure etc., maybe we just have a difference of Semantics or Terminology. All the suggestions above seem very good. Maybe you could make an embouchure, remove the mouthpiece and, without the mouthpiece, RE-describe what you're doing: posture, lip shape, mouth shape/tongue shape and position... how you breathe, how often you blink... [okay, I know, don't get carried away, ron].
In short: how do you hold your horn in your mouth and how do you start and stop your notes?
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-05-02 23:26
Sue. I fine it very difficult to detect a sharp tongue strike in clarinet recordings. Professional clarinetists probably have a special technique of there own for producing stacato.
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-05-03 01:56
I had the same issue... only I had been playing for eight years and I was in college in my private lessons. I had to play a transposed Eb part on Bb for one of the Holst Suites which required staccato eighth notes and we realized that I had been tonguing incorrectly my entire life.
I was using my bottom lip to stop the air instead of my tongue. My tongue never touched the reed. I know why I started this way, too... I didn't like the spitty sound of my tongue touching the reed when I first started to play, so I changed my technique. I spent many frustrating hours in practice rooms trying to correct this my freshman year of college, and now I can tongue very well. This was probably one of the hardest things I ever had to learn (relearn?) since I have been playing and I can't even begin to explain the frustration and tears involved in correcting the problem.
I am very sensitive now to the tonguing techniques of my students and I make sure they are doing it properly so they don't have to go through the same problems.
In my opinion, when you learn to tongue, especially if you are fixing an incorrect technique, it will always sound worse before it sounds better, but it will eventually get better... just stick with it!!
Good Luck!
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Author: Tim2
Date: 2004-05-03 02:28
VermontJM , I too, tongued with my tongue behind my bottom lip when I was young. I did it because my tonguing sounded better, softer. Two years in college and I couldn't get it. Then in the summer of '75, all of a sudden, something clicked in the span of a week or two. This clarinetist is not the fastest tonguer but the tongue touches the reed. Didn't think anyone else ever tongued like that. Your post brought back memories. There was struggle, especially the second year, trying to get it right. I really don't know what made things kick in that summer, though.
The sensitivity that you have as a result of your struggle makes you a better teacher. I applaude you.
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2004-05-03 18:00
Hi,
Thanks for your replies folks.
My tongue is not even close to the reed or indeed my top teeth - it stays neatly tucked in the bottom of my mouth and never moves !!! It's not closed over my throat - I'm able to pull my tongue down inside my mouth and create a hollow in the middle on the "floor" of my mouth and the tip rests just below my bottom teeth !
My tongue isn't particularly short - in fact it's quite long and pointed and I can touch my nose with it if I was so inclined !!! I can roll the sides of it to form a tube - I'm a "roller" - Great for fly catching but little else !!!!!
It was never an issue when playing the recorder - tongue not required and neatly out of the way !
When playing the clarinet I control the notes totally with my breathing.
I guess it's because I can move my trongue easily out of the way that I've just automatically done so.
I've been trying to tongue today since reading your replies and it sounds as if I'm spitting into my clarinet !
Should my tongue be touching the reed at the start of the note or just the end ???
Thanks for your help .............and your patience.
Sue
:)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-05-03 18:14
Sue,
Your tongue should touch the reed just below the tip. Use a small amount of tongue.
To practice, say "Teee".
That mimics very closely what your tongue should be doing with the clarinet in your mouth. Vocal cords excepted, of course!
Don't worry about the spittiness at first. That can clear up. Just try to get the tongue in contact with the reed.
I thought recorder players and flute players all tongued with the tip of their tongue touching the roof of the mouth behind the front teeth. At least that is how _I_ play them...
Katrina
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2004-05-03 18:21
Hi Katrina,
Thanks for your reply.
It probably means that I didn't play the recorder properly either !!!!
Sue
:)
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2004-05-03 18:59
Think I've got this all wrong !!!
Should I be rolling my bottom lip slightly over my teeth before placing the mouthopiece in my mouth as I'd understood from my teacher initially or should I rest my bottom lip on the reed and feel it's vibrations ??
It's certainly easier to get my tongue on the reed if my lip doesn't roll over my bottom teeth and it sounds beeter too I think - or at least it will with practice I suspect.
I really appreciate the advice folks
sue
:)
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Author: chrystineNYC
Date: 2004-05-03 20:16
Hey Sue.. hmm.. this sounds pretty familiar to what I'm currently doing. Picked up the clarinet about four months ago after a 20 year hiatus and got a teacher. He thinks I'm tongueing all the way but little does he know.. my tongue is hiding behind my lower lip. I do tongue occassionally but found that I can produce the notes (even the upper register) easier without the tongue. I suppose I will have to tongue but not sure what the true reason is. Frustration totally! But In reading everyone's comments above, seems its definitely necessary.
But from one clarinentist to another.. hope you can figure it out and accomplish it. I too will be practicing and figuring out how the tongueing helps in playing when it comes off very spitty-ish.
Good luck and do report your progress.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-05-04 02:22
Sue,
Even if your bottom lip is rolled over your teeth, the reed should be resting on it. In other words there is direct contact between the reed and your lip AND between your lip and your teeth.
The tongue should be independent of the lips. Say "Tee" and see what I mean...it's the same thing...tongue and lips don't really work together for the "t" part of the word "Tee."
Maybe you need more mouthpiece in your mouth???
Try another lesson or 3 with the same or another teacher...and ask the teacher from the outset what he thinks about both your embouchure AND your tonguing.
Katrina
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2004-05-04 19:23
Hi Katrina,
I've been trying to do as you suggest - bringing my tongue out of retirement and into contact with the reed isn't proving as difficult as I thought it would be - I do findi it easier to roll my bottom lip over my bottom teeth still but it sounds from your post that's an ok thing to do as long as the reed is in contact with my lip (teeth firmly below ) and tip of tongue on tip of reed ???
I do seem to be squeaking from time to time but I think with lots of practice and perseverance it'll come ok - sounds different but certainly not better at present but I guess that'll come in time ???
Thanks again for your advice.
Sue
:)
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