 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bnanno
Date: 2004-04-20 11:40
I really love the clarinet concert by Mozart, and I read that it was originally composed for his friend Stadler (?) who played on a basset clarinet. I understand that clarinet had an additional joint to increase the lower range of the clarinet., and that the concert was sometimes played on this
Questions: Any recordings of the clarinet concert with this instrument that you would recommend?
Also, anywhere where I can get a nice looking picture/photo of this instrument?
Thanks.
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Author: lycfmtkl
Date: 2004-04-20 14:53
There are many many CD recordings of the Mozart concerto K622.
I have one played by Charles Neidich with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra.
another one by Sabine Meyer with the Berliner Phiharmoniker.
There is a DVD of the concerto played by Peter Schmidl using the A clarinet. You can see clearly his fingering on the instrument throughout the concerto.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2004-04-20 14:59
The concerto was written for Anton Stadler (who was about as good with money as Mozart himself).
The Basset Clarinet has the same extensions that you find on bass clarinets, descending to c below low e. Many passages in the concerto are "broken" - requiring the performer to arpeggiate in the middle of the chalumeau and then descend (mvt I - ms 326, 337 are good examples). On the Basset, you could simply arpeggiate from the low c, creating the broad sweeps of sound the composer probably intended.
Stadler apparently pawned his instruments with the concerto in his bag...and now we all play arranged reconstructions (until someone in europe discovers the original in their attic).
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-20 16:12
Topher said:
> The concerto was written for Anton Stadler
> (who was about as good with money as Mozart himself).
Let's not forget the letter from Mozart to Constanza (early October 1791):
"... Stadler, who is only a bit of an ass - but Süssmayer, why, he is a full blown ass..."
Unfortunately, Mozart would time and again overlook Stadler's parasitic ways due to his clarinet artistry...GBK
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2004-04-20 18:00
Perhaps they'll locate the lost Suessmayer concerto along with the original Mozart in the hypothetical attic. And as far as "full blown ass[es]"...the title still goes to Wagner!
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-04-20 18:19
Attachment: stbc01tg.gif (10k)
Attachment: stcl01.gif (45k)
Attachment: BassetAExtension1.jpg (40k)
Some pictures:
Stadler's clarinet as found on a program note from his appearence in Riga, Latvia, found by Pamela Poulin.
A Stephen Fox replica of the same instrument.
Chadash modern Basset clarinet.
Alphie
Post Edited (2004-04-20 18:24)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-04-20 21:27
May I suggest, without malice, that perhaps one of the reasons classical music is on the wane worldwide is our obsession with music that's really old and with little relevance to today's world (i.e., boring to most people)? I suggest, knowing full well that this is a heretical thought to most of you, that Mozart falls in that category. Other than 20 or 30 clarinet fanatics in the world, who really cares what Mozart intended, or Stadler played? The debate might be of some academic interest in small doses, but I've seen way too much discussion of these earth-shaking issues here on the BB and in the Klarinet digest.
Flame away, my Nomex suit is on.
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-04-20 21:37
Because David, it is our responsibility as musicans to care about what mozart intended. Greg Smith had a good post on enterpreting music and what not. I understand the boring category, and it's alright to have a little fun to appeal to new audiences but we must all still understand what our composers intended, and for me and im sure for more than 20 or 30 clarinetists world wide, it will be forever interesting.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-04-20 21:48
TKS for the links/pics, history is a nostalgic trip, but back to the 21st century for modern-playable insts. and NEW music, I'm with Dave!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-04-20 23:52
David S
To re-discover the intentions of the classical composers and beyond is just as modern as to discover new music. That's why most ambitious young musicians and conductors today very often are interested in both.
For someone who do care about music it's just as interesting to try to find out the meaning of music as to try to find out the meaning of life itself. And maybe just as difficult.
Where or when does history start? A minute ago, or earlier? Everything that has survived time because people love and need it is just as valuable today as it has always been.
It's our obligation as musicians to follow the expectations from living composers as well as the dead. The living we can ask, for the dead we have to do our best with the information we can get.
Alphie
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2004-04-21 02:45
Ken Shaw....thanks for the heads up the the Suessmayer, I'll give it a listen.
Some are born for contemporary music, others for classical...and most of us both (kudo's to the variety of the human spirit).
However, if you are going to perform someone's music you must be interested in their intent. Otherwise everyone would and could just rewrite every part as they like...and at that point why not just compose your own music?
I find the idea of recreating 300 year old human thought pretty hip, myself.
Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-04-21 04:48
David ... no need for flame proof vest buddy, you're entitled to your view like anyone else.
I happen to like the authentic movement ... it has at the very least scrapped off some dodgy 19th century editions and gotten us back to "barebones" ...
However I HATE them because they have not even thought about what musicans were like in the time of Mozart or Haydn.
Sorry - powdered wigs they might very well have worn if they'd worked in ducal court (whatever) but to think they played with NO vibrato and with a beautiful clear line is just plain risible.
they were LOWER in the pecking order than manservants ... i.e. they were musical peasants. Even "Papa Haydn" ate with the other serviing staff at Estahaza (please read any of the wonderful H.C. Robins Landon books on life at this god awful palace for true enlightenment).
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Author: bnanno
Date: 2004-04-21 09:11
Dear All,
Thanks for the info, was most interesting.
I too have heard different recordings, the one I have is with Jack Brymer on the clarinet and Sir Colin Davis conducting the LSO..I just wanted to know if there were any using the basset clarinet.
David P: Thanks for your link, I might get it. This coming two months is tax returns, car/house insurance, and a new violin.....so am definately going to be scraping around...
David S: You don't need a fire suit for your opinion, I am not obsssesed. I have this collection that i did in the eighties where each recording is accopmanied by a large amount of biography and notes on the piece. And as i had time this ester, i actually sat and read them, and it was an interesting discovery for me...the notes mentioned that "recently the concert had been played on the basset clarinet with great success" an dI just wanted to know if there was any recording so that I could listen to the concert on that.
Just to see if it sounded different., and perhaps what Mozart actually had in his head..
Yes, the notes mentioned Stadler's parasitic ways...apparently, as the concert was written after the magic flute and before the Requiem during his last days, , it mentioned that despite all M's financial difficulties, Stadler still came away managing to borrow some money off M!
Anyway, as a curiostity, the other isde of the recording is his flute and harp concert, and it mentions they were the two of his most hated instruments...doesn't seem to have affected his composing ability though.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-21 12:37
David is just attempting to keep the tempo of the posts at a high and intertaining level. Personally I never especially cared for Mozart when I was younger....it took years of "curing" to come to appreciate the man/boy AND his music. Read what he wrote his father about the poor devils who played his K.375 Serenade. Rock and Roll.....and Mozart will never die....This has been a good read with coffee early in the morning. Thanks to all.
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Author: BlockEyeDan
Date: 2004-04-21 17:02
You might want to check out David Shifrin's K622 with the Mostly Mozart Orchestra (1987-ish). The album cover shows him with both a Bb and a basset clarinet, which was custom made for him.
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2004-04-21 23:36
Tobin wrote:
"Stadler apparently pawned his instruments with the concerto in his bag..."
Are you kidding around or have you actually read that???? If you have, I would love to know the book you saw it in. I dont know much about Stadler but would gladly read anything about him that anyone could suggest.
Cheers,
Joe Vacc
Post Edited (2004-04-21 23:37)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-04-22 09:55
joevacc: Tobin is not kidding around. This story is attributed to Mozart's widow.
See http://www.glossamusic.com/downloads/pdf/921107.pdf
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2004-04-22 13:22)
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Author: bnanno
Date: 2004-04-22 09:58
Thanks David,
you Are a Source of Interesting information!!
Dan, will look up what you suggested.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-04-22 10:04
bnanno - I only looked it up on Google! I searched on "Stadler" and "pawned". Simple as that.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-22 11:23
joevacc wrote:
> I dont know much about Stadler but
> would gladly read anything about him
> that anyone could suggest
There is a fairly comprehensive chapter on Anton Stadler in Pamela Weston's book Clarinet Virtuosi of the Past ...GBK
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2004-04-22 14:58
Thank you David!... GBK, I haven't read that book yet but have been saying "gotta get that book" for some time now.
Thanks again,
Joe Vacc
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-22 18:07
I've searched extensively for that dvd of Schmidl mentioned above and can't find it. Anyone know where it's available? There appears to have been a vhs of it with Bernstein but I can't even find that available.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-22 20:05
Having heard a few different recordings, I have to say that my favourite is one of the newest.
Michael Collins with the Russian National Orchestra and Mikhail Pletnev on DG is outstanding. You also get something you won't here anywhere else...the Beethoven violin concerto on clarinet!!
He plays it on a basset, and while some people may say he does several things 'because he can' rather than for any particular musical reason, it is stunning clarinet playing.
I have also heard the story about Stadler pawning the concerto...I have checked my attic several times, but I don't think it's here!!
Danny.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-04-22 20:41
RAMman wrote:
> Michael Collins with the Russian National Orchestra and Mikhail
> Pletnev on DG is outstanding. You also get something you won't
> here anywhere else...the Beethoven violin concerto on
> clarinet!!
The reason you won't find it anywhere else is because the transcription does not work. Even Michael Collins finally came to that conclusion and made a public statement of the same ... GBK
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-22 21:00
Must people comment on EVERYTHING somebody says?
I know he made the public statement saying the transcription doesn't work...I was at the concert where he made it.
He performed it in Bonn, and had a very poor reaction to it...he then replaced it with the Mozart in a number of concerts in the following weeks.
Some people have been heard to say...he won't perform it live due to its difficulty. Hang on, maybe I should delete that last sentence...
That doesn't stop the fact it's on the disc, you won't here it anywhere else and makes interesting listening.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-04-22 22:00
Easy, Danny.
This is the clarinet board, and when you put something up about the clarinet, it's open for comment. I have the Collins record and, like you, I think the Mozart is excellent. The Beethoven transcription is a failure, but an interesting one. I'm glad to have heard it, but I doubt I'll play it much. Collins has not, as far as I know, attempted to have the CD withdrawn.
Count to 10. Then go home and practice.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-04-22 22:05
I heard this Beethoven performed last weekend on the radio (RNO) and thought it just didn't quite work. However, I couldn't fault the playing of either the solosit or the orchestra. It was still in D major, and I assume he used either an A clarinet or perhaps even a C...does anyone know what he played the Beethoven on?
thanks
diz | Sydney
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-22 23:33
Apologies,
I'm getting carried away again...it happens!!
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Author: bnanno
Date: 2004-04-23 10:00
David,
And I was So Impressed!..Anyway, you can still be credited with intuiting the right words to type in google...
RAMman: Will try and get hold of the Collins recording recommended...
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-04-23 11:29
meanwhile
for a recording of the Mozart Concerto played on a ("period") Basset Clarinet, look no further than Philips 420 242-2
Eric Hoeprich, Orchestra of the 18th Century, Frans Brueggen
(also includes the Mozart Quintet).
For a version where the player has used a modern clarinet, but made some adjusments/octave displacement to try and make it closer to the original (despite the fact that no one is exactly sure how the original went) you could try to find
Gerard Schlotz, Brixi Chamber orchestra of Prague with Christoph Meister
Diem classic DIM 6109-2
Another good version (hard to find)
Alessandro Carbonare- Agora AG 111
by the way, i lent my copy of Ralph Manno playing a Beethoven violin sonata on clarinet to someone and have forgotten who, if you read this please give it back! The clarinet transcription sounds terrible, but the cello transcription on the same CD works really well....
donald
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-04-26 15:32
Eric Hoeprich has recorded the Mozart Concerto several times on different period reconstructions he has made. The first ones were on a hypothetical instrument with a basset box and a downward-pointing brass bell. While they're excellent performances, they were made obsolete by the discovery of the Riga drawing, showing a basically straight instrument with a side-pointing egg-shaped wood bell. http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Stadler.html
Hoeprich has made a copy, and his most recent recording is made with it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000068QZ1/qid=1082992769/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-8455977-7102307
At the Columbus ClarinetFest, held just after the Riga drawing had been found, Hoeprich spoke about it and how it had changed his concept. The drawing is not completely clear, but it appears to have the reed facing upward, as we have been told about that perod. I asked him about this, and he agreed, but said he had never been able to get comfortable playing with the reed on top. Thus, we still have less than a 100% outfit. Still, given that we have no idea what Stadler sounded like, and have 200 years of later music resonating in our ears, it's as close as we're likely to got.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-04-26 22:18
Does anyone have a digital version of the "Riga Drawing"?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-27 14:21
What fantastic comments! I only recently heard the Sabine Meyer/Abbado/Berliner and was floored. Not knowing what she was playing I thought perhaps a second bass clarinet or alto was synching the low notes with her. So...now I must buy the other recommendations too?
....and yet another book!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-28 15:09
Lotsa luck on buying the book!!...or the sequel.....
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-04-28 19:19
BobD -
Actually, Pamela Weston has gotten the copyrights back and has reissued Clarinetist Virtosi of the Past and More Clarinetist Virtuosi of the Past, along with an update volume, Yesterday's Clarinettists: A Sequel. Gary van Cott has them. http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm They're $38.95 each, which is high, but about what they went for when they came out. The binding on the original editions fell apart. I've heard that the new ones are better.
The one that hasn't reappeared is Clarinet Virtuosi of the Present, which is the only one I don't have. Anybody got a copy?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-04-28 22:03
The correct title is: "Clarinet virtuosi of today". I have a copy.
Alphie
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-04-28 23:27
Thanks for the tip....but geez, that's a lot for a paperback....I guess.
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