 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-26 15:04
Obviously this is a spinoff after the last post in the thread "unstained clarinets". Anyone know how to remove the stain if one so wanted to?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-03-26 16:38
I believe Dr. Omar Henderson ("The Doctor's Products" --- a sponsor here) can do this (which is not to imply that he WANTS to.....).
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-26 16:51
I had contacted him a few months ago and he said he was going to be tied up in a project till after the summer. So all he's doing is that project and filling his orders for his normal products. So that's a no-go right now.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2004-03-26 17:26
Isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol will remove the stain from clarinets if you use enough of it in the application.
Some stains are not affected by small amounts of alcohol and others are. I havn't tried to remove all the stain, but believe most of the stain can be removed.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-03-26 19:14
I have inadvertently removed some staining when using denatured alcohol for clean-up. This was an old horn I was restoring for the fun of it - nothing lost. I suppose, as Clarence says, if you really bathe the horn in alcohol you'd remove quite a bit of stain. I have no idea what else you might remove. I've never set out purposefully to de-stain a clarinet but I don't know why you couldn't - with the right know-how.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: icecoke12
Date: 2004-03-27 03:37
Someone mentioned in one of the posts to try rubbing with the Doctor's wood cleaner?
That should be relatively safe to try on clarinets? maybe you can just try on the bell first to see what happens...
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-03-27 03:46
Yes, I got some of the stain on my 5-year-old R-13 to come off using the Doctor's wood cleaner. But on my Leblanc LL and my Signet 100 (both made in the 70s), it doesn't bother the stain a whit. I guess the older the stain, the tougher it is to remove.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Emily
Date: 2004-03-28 07:35
Because it's pretty.
Am I the only one who would hesitate to put rubbing alcohol on the wood? That can't be good for it.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-28 13:32
Quote:
WHY?????????????? To see what the wood REALLY looks like.Quote:
Am I the only one who would hesitate to put rubbing alcohol on the wood? Nope. I'm not gonna go that method until I do a lot more research on it and the possible effects. The Doc's Wood Cleaner however I would use in a second. That guy makes QUALITY products, which are very clarinet safe.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-03-28 14:23
I hear from the anti-Buffet mob that you use PLENTY of alcohol and then touch it with a match.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-03-29 03:41
Per the label on the bottle of rubbing alcohol in our medicine chest, it contains 30% water.
Denatured alcohol (sold as shellac thinner, solvent alcohol or stove fuel) contains very little if any water.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-03-29 05:29
Ralph, some older Clarinets really were (are) black, or almost so, just naturally. The whole purpose of the stain on newer ones is to make 'em look like the old ones used to look.
Regards,
John
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-03-29 06:10
JMcAulay wrote:
> The whole purpose of the stain on newer
> ones is to make 'em look like the old ones used to look.
With a secondary purpose being to use filler and stain to hide obvious defects in some of the poorer wood billets ...GBK
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-03-29 06:43
Jim E. says, "Per the label on the bottle of rubbing alcohol in our medicine chest, it contains 30% water.
In the drug store, they'll sell 91% Isopropyl alcolhol, too. Buy some, it's a good general purpose degreaser and gummy tag remover to keep around the house. It'll dry your hands out, though. I think it's pretty safe for people. I see no possible harm from rubbing it on a clarinet to remove the stain, except maybe the clarinet would not look as nice after. I wouldn't dream of trying it on my good, new horn. But on the disassembled Cartier on my workbench (with which I am training myself to do basic overhaul), I think I'll try it. The alcohol will remove the oil, too, so I will be sure to oil the surface after...
WT
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-30 00:36
(Disclaimer - I rarely unstain clarinets for money and now I am project bound anyway - I do sell a wood cleaner containing a lesser content of the active ingredient)
I use a homebrew stripping solution whose active ingredient is d-limolene, at 20% concentration, the citrus terpene used in many commercial cleaners such as "Orange Glo", etc. It seems to remove the stain better than isopropyl alcohol and not remove as many of the essential oils from the wood as commercial paint strippers or alcohols. The citrus terpenes are much safer for the technician than volatile petroleum solvents but the process should still be done in a well ventillated area. Care should be taken not to get any stripper on the pads but the citrus stripper will not harm metal keywork - it is still a tedious job and about a one roll of paper towel cleanup. After removing the stain and grunge I immediately treat the wood again with a quality bore oil, let it soak in overnight and repeat until oil still remains on the surface after an overnight rest, wipe off the excess oil, let completely dry overnight, then apply a quality wax. I have had excellent results using this procedure on some 20 clarinets.
The Doctor
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Author: cujo
Date: 2004-03-30 02:36
OK now my question since my last one was a little unspecified.
Why are clarinets stained?
Why remove the stain?
Some reason this is all new to me.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-30 02:56
As GBK suggests, I think that staining is used to even out the color of the wood and hide possible imperfections. Heartwood is usually more desirable and has a tighter grain pattern and less variation in color (light streaks). As you move further out towards the bark the color variations, potential wavy pattern and tightness in the grain change and imperfections, much lighter colored pulp wood areas, etc. become more prominent. Often imperfections, called checks, are filled with wood filler which almost never perfectly matches the color of the surrounding wood. Rather than show these repairs, imperfections in grain, very pronounced lighter streaks, etc., the manufacturers will give the wood an even color through the use of an opaque stain. Unstained, or wood lightly stained with transparent stain will show the true character of the wood and some would say the quality of the wood used in the instrument. Often, very nice wood shows up in not top of the line instruments but since it is in that model series it is stained - needed or not. Some instrument manufacturers just use an opaque stain because of tradition or the perceived desire of the customer - i.e. Amati wood clarinets. The debate rages about the relationship between wood quality and the tone of the instrument or the potential for cracking but there is no hard data to prove the point one way or the other.
The Doctor
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-03-30 03:16
Hey, Doctor: What is "a good wax"? Are you leaning toward carnauba, or used ear wax? Old candles, maybe?
Enquiring mind wants to know.
Thanks and regards,
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-30 10:32
(Disclaimer - I sell a woodwind wax)
I am biased toward a wax used by many museums to put on their wood but even though waxed the wood should have some ability to breathe IMO so that leaves out the synthetic waxes that form an impermeable mositure barrier. Some of the "natural" waxes such as carnauba array in plates that repel moisture droplets but allow water vapor some room to enter and leave. There have been several posts in the past on waxes and some favor the bowling alley wax and others have their favorites. I have not investigated ear wax but I always welcome a new product application that proves useful - at least it would always be at your fingertips!
The Doctor
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-03-30 15:36
Doctor: I hope it is not becoming too commercialized if I suggest you market your formulation of "de-stainer." I would certainly be a customer.
Regards,
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-30 23:34
John, I do not doubt your abilities but the process is tricky, especially if the wood has light and darker areas. In a past life I was a professional antique furniture refinisher and blending and dodging (akin to photographic work before computer graphics came into being) colors and shades is experience based. The risk exposure would be too high and the demand too low for such a destaining product. Like any botched job, the fix is often many times more expensive than an initial quality job done by an experienced person. As I indicated I do not have the time now myself to do this service but there are probably many others who inhabit the BB that are qualified including yourself. Many qualified wood workers could probably do a good job on such a project too but in the hands of a novice it could be trouble.
The Doctor
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-31 00:51
Doc,
If you're still around, do you think some sort of antique shop or furniture repair store could do it themselves? I presume I'd have to remove all keys before bringing it there. Just wondering if you would trust them or solely trust a musician....
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-31 01:48
Alexi - my favorite comment - it depends. The quality of the work varies with the experience of the refinisher. I have seen very expensive antique furniture ruined by the hot solvent dipping process - definately stay away from dippers. The more experienced and expensive shops still use hand stripping with formulations unique to the refinisher. Many antiques loose value if refinished to remove the original finish or patina. Often these pieces are lightly cleaned to remove dirt alone or a special formulation is used to "consolidate" the original finish - not change it but soften the original finish to remove most cracking or peeling and clarify the finish.
Stain removal involves a stripper that is a solvent primarily for the stain and varies if the stain is mixed with a shellac or varnish or is an oil or water based stain. I gather that the horn that you want refinished is an Amati professional model. Amati uses a particular formulation which is a stain in a linseed oil base which is difficult to remove because the linseed oil is polymerized and the stain is a dispersed powder like lamp black. The applied stain on Amati horns I finally discovered is only removed with difficulty with a mixture of d-limolene and a tertiary alcohol in an oil based vehicle and lots of paper toweling to wipe off the dissolved stain. Once the bulk of the layer of stain is removed the color blending can be accomplished with conventional stripping formulations. The bells on Amati professional horns that I have worked on are Cocobolo wood and care must be used not to remove as much stain on the bell if the overall hue of the horn is to remain the same.
I hope that you have good luck.
The Doctor
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-31 02:05
You are correct, Doc. The Amati 604 would be the horn intended. Ah, after so much trouble I may as well just wait until your plate isn't so full and you will be able to take it on. Until then, I'll just have to somehow "make do" with the current stain. I bet that the stain is the reason I play so badly.....if only I had a nicer stain and delrin tenon rings. I'd be so much better . . ..
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-03-31 07:41
Doctor: Thanks for your comments re exposure. Of course, you are quite right. An uncertain process in uncertain hands? No wonder you would not want to participate commercially in such scary stuff.
However, thanks for the suggested approach, which I may take with my Amati. Plays so nicely, but the more I look at it, the less I like its appearance.
Regards,
John
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-18 15:42
IIRC, Dr. Herderson contracts with Amati to make the Forte clarinets. While the Forte's are plastic, the fact that he has a close relationship with Amati and the standing to pick up the phone and get real information from them should be noted.
I can't wait to hear what this new project is, though.
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