 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jeff Forman
Date: 2004-03-23 13:17
Mark's post of the picture of his daughter with all those clarinets reminded me of a question I've had for a while. Immediately to the left of Julia in the picture is an "unstained" clarinet. I'm not sure if it is a Bb or an A clarinet. But it is clearly the most beautiful looking of the horns, to me, because the wood grains are visible and the color is just brilliant. And that leads me to ask the knowledgable folks on this board whether the black stained horns have a better tone as a general proposition (since most players play them). Does the staining affect the vibrations of the wood? And why don't more players have and/or use the rosewood colored ones or the brown, natural wood colored ones like the one next to Mark's daughter?
Jeff
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-03-23 15:03
Actually, I believe that IS a rosewood clarinet, a tropical hardwood completely different from grenadilla/mpingo/African blackwood.
Somebody who knows more than me would have to give you their treatise on the effects of stained wood on tone quality. But upper-level Buffet horns like the Prestige line have unstained wood, so among marketing circles it's made out to be the mark of higher quality.
One interesting thing happened to my R-13 when I received it last summer. I got it secondhand, a 5-year-old model with s ilver plated keys. Eventually I used the Doctor's woodwind cleaner to give it a good once-over and, to my surprise, it took most of the stain off the lower joint. The Doc, while surprised, assured me in an email that no harm would come to the wood. But darned if I can tell any difference in tone quality before and after. I must admit, though, I sure do like how it looks.
ΒΆ
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2004-03-23 15:31)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-03-23 16:37
Mpingo is a member of the rosewood family. Check out the African Blackwood Conservation Project for more info.
Instruments like the Buffet Prestige line are unstained so you can see the beauty and clarity of the wood, which ostensibly has fewer imperfections and a better grain than the stock that is stained. You can make all the jokes you'd like about the dye giving the horn a "darker" sound, but it is highly unlikely that there is any discerible difference in the resonant quality of the wood stained vs. unstained.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-03-23 16:54
A bit of trivia-Apparently a similar "debate" exists in the brass world regarding lacquer. Its presence-absence makes the sound darker-brighter depending on who you are talking to.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-23 17:03
Perhaps. Don't forget the different plating on ligs (FL has a brass, silver, and gold plated models. Silver is what I have and most people say they prefer the silver.) I'm thinking it's more mental. They see a darker clarinet, and so percieve darker sound, things like that. But until we have people properly tested (as everyone says is nearly impossible to do with clarinet anyway since each clarinet is different in their own respective ways), we can't have any PROOF.
Maybe we can take people, blindfold them and have them play on unstaineded clarinets. Then you stain half the clarinets, and hand the same clarinet back to the same blindfolded applicant, but tell ALL the applicants that their clarinet was now stained. Finally ask if the sound has changed. And see if the people with the UN-stained clarinets are fooled by thinking that it's been stained.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-03-23 17:06)
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2004-03-23 21:03
Jeff....
The horn you're referring to, if I'm looking at the one you're talking about....
is actually an old CONN. It's there experiment with laminates. It's not a good clarinet according to those that have played them. It's what CONN called their "violin" finish and is basically a veneer. Looks good. Shows pretty, but is not a good player.
JG....the Clarinator
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-03-23 21:49
Also called "propeller wood", it often developed an uncontrollable desire...
to spontaneously De-laminate :(
- rb -
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2004-03-24 02:06
The Clarinet you are refering to is a Pan American by Conn. It was a botched science experiment by Conn to create a crack-proof wood clarinet. The problem was, (as Ron stated) the glue would fail and cause the laminated wood to de-laminate (picture old wet plywood).
As far as a player, well, (as John said) they were not that good. Student level at best. A great mouthpiece helps but as they say,"You can't polish a turd."
Cool to look at though.
Regards
Mark
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-03-24 05:31
In the archives there are big debates about whether material affects the sound of a clarinet at all. Many hold that if you take any material, hard plastic, hard rubber, mpingo (a dark rosewood family member), lighter redder Brazilian or Honduran rosewood, or metal, and make a clarinet out of it with good workmanship, it will sound the same. Others believe the material does contribute somewhat to the tone quality. I believe tone quality is hard to measure, that material does affect the sound very slightly, and that other subjective characteristics like feel and looks do subtlely, even subconsciously affect how we perceive the sound.
Against this background I can't imagine that black dye has any effect at all to the sound, except subconsciously.
Sax and trumpet players do argue about laquer and its effects. I think brass instruments, including saxes, do measureably vibrate more than clarinets, so those arguements may have more substance. This is something I guess I could research in the Trumpet and Sax world.
I don't know..... Ligatures are so small; do you really think plating on a ligature makes a difference?
I like the idea of unstained grenadilla. Wood grain is pretty. I bought a Festival, just a little bit because it has 'unstained' wood. But it is definately stained. Maybe it is stained a little less. Does anyone have a Prestige in front of them, and can they say there is no sign of staining? Last year there was an R-13 in a music shop in San Diego and it was much less stained than my Festival. And it was quite lovely. Anyway, I think Buffet stains em all, but maybe less stain for the higher end horns.
WT
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2004-03-26 05:43
I was about to say that the "unstained" clarinet looks like a propellor wood.
So, is it safe to say that the Pan American "propellor wood" is also a Conn "Violin finish"? And it isn't naturally that color, it is actually a veneer? I heard it was a hard rubber clarinet with the wood veneer.
The only real reddish wood clarinets I have seen are the rosewood Selmer contras and Amatis (in person anyway), which actually are said to be rosewood. Other unstained grenadillas or Mpingos are very dark in color, from what I have seen personally.
My R13 is definately stained, but in the light you can see a very pretty wood grain. So maybe mine isn't as stained as usual. It's a lot better looking than everyone else's in the school of music, I think.
--CG
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2004-03-26 14:34
When I first got my R-13, I noticed that it had some kind of dark purple paint. It's so dark it looks black, except at a certain angle to the light where it shines a very dark purple. It was a pretty color, but I wanted a clarinet with natural wood color. I quickly found out the stuff came off pretty easily. A damp rag rubbed over it took it off rather easily. Over the next few days I worked on rubbing it all off. I removed the keys to get the hard-to-reach places. Finally I had a clarinet that I can see the wood grain on, and it looks so much better. It's still black, but under the right light, especially if a little oil is rubbed on it, the deep red grain stands out really well.
Does anyone know if that layer is the only thing they added, or do they also put an actual stain on the wood underneath the paint?
-------------
"You have to play just right to make dissonant music sound wrong in the right way"
Post Edited (2004-03-26 14:36)
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-03-26 15:34
Contragirl, it's been a while since I've seen one, but the Conns are made of a laminated propeller wood, layers of wood glued together. Not a veneer and not hard rubber. I think they look neat. Most don't think they are very good clarinet, apparently a student model at the time. The one I played either wasn't well restored or was a poor clarinet. Look around here and there should be good pictures somewhere.
And your R13 sounds like the one I saw. It stood out as a beautiful horn.
Joel, I think they are definately stained, not 'painted'. Yours just had lots of stain. Maybe their control of the staining process is not tight. Maybe Buffet thinks we like having a choice of colors.
LOL, maybe they understand that we like to play lots of instruments before we choose, and they give us a choice of colors so we will think this one is darker or brighter than that one, and will be happy with our choice. (That was tongue in cheek.)
W
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2004-03-26 16:19
"Joel, I think they are definately stained, not 'painted'. Yours just had lots of stain. Maybe their control of the staining process is not tight. Maybe Buffet thinks we like having a choice of colors."
I tried about 12 R-13s, and they all had an equeal amount of the purple stuff on them. It was in such a thick layer and it came off so easily, it's hard to believe it's stain. I thought stain was supposed to absorb into the wood, which I would also think would hide the grain. But when I took the purple stuff off the grain was quite visible.
Here's a pic:
-------------
"You have to play just right to make dissonant music sound wrong in the right way"
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