 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-03-24 15:40
The string players in the Bonn Beethoven Orchestra want more money than the wind players because they play more notes.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1176661,00.html
Pity the poor triangle player. If this goes through, will all clarinets gravitate to bands? Also, I'm bringing an Ab, Eb, C, Bb, A, alto, basset horn, bass, contra-alto and contrabass clarinets, and soprillo, sopranino, soprano, alto, C melody, tenor, baritone, bass and contrabass saxes to the next rehearsal, and I want deca-nonupler's fees! Maybe I'll bring my kazoo.
![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-24 15:55
WAAAH!!! WAAAH!!! WAAAH!!!
Whatever happened to playing for the love of music? If you want more money, maybe it's time to pursue an additional or simply different job. I can't wait to see what the judge says......
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2004-03-24 16:09
"Pity the poor triangle player"
But also consider all of the other purcussive implements that can be catorgorzed as legitimate doubles. If you can take aim and hit one, you can play (hit) anything.....the list of qualifing possiblities is endless.
And those string players--all they have to learn is how to play on four strings that can be pre-tuned and don't have to be moistened (saliva or water) sanded, balanced, cured for weeks or picked out of numerous (overly priced) boxes of ten.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-03-24 16:22
Although apocryphal, we all surely remember the scene in Amadeus where Emperor Joseph II criticized Mozart's new opera Die Entführung aus dem Serail as having "too many notes" and to "just cut a few and it will be perfect."
To which Mozart responded: "Which few did you have in mind, Majesty? There are exactly as many notes as there should be." ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-03-24 16:36
What about a Turkish G clarinet, Ken? And if you play Boehm, German/Oehler, and simple/Albert would that get you additional doubler's fees?
BTW, what kind of semi truck would you use to transport all of those?
;)
Katrina
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2004-03-24 16:44
Well, playing music for a living has always been a crap shoot, I guess. Teaching (non-music) used to be that way too....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2004-03-24 17:02
Larger organizations often compare jobs for compensation purposes using formulae based on such factors as Know-How, Problem Solving, Accountability, Working Conditions, Skill, Responsibility, etc. It's far from perfect, but allows for more objectivity than no system.
Perhaps factors could be developed for musicians so that their pay could be determined in a reasonable and equitable way.
Anyone sitting in front of a trombone, for example, would get extra pay for Working Conditions in the form of an Ear Plug Allowance; clarinet players could seek extra for Sore Right Thumb plus a Reed Allowance; pianists would get more for Playing the Most Octaves and the Heaviest Instrument; etc.
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-03-24 17:46
From the FARK comment:
From now on, all programs will be made up exclusively of performances of Cage's 4'33"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2004-03-24 19:27
Well, Ken, in the good ole' US of A, strings already make more money in many orchestras than the wind players. It could be because they play more services since everything calls for strings, or it could be because of supply and demand -- ratio of eligible players to available desks gives string players more leverage than wind players. Sucks to be us, but how many wind bands are there that pay a living wage to anybody (at least since the middle of the last century)?
BTW, Wiseman makes a great case for all those instruments. Only problem is it runs on diesel...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-03-24 19:37
I'd like to see those tutti violinists cope with the stress of playing an exposed wind part, rather than sitting in the passenger seats of tutti strings players!
How do you make a violinist play with vibrato?
--Write "solo" above the note!
Not to mention trying to find a good reed for every concert...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-03-24 19:40
msloss -
You think the ratio of string players to positions is high? What about clarinet! In high school, you play in a band, with 20 clarinets, 10 flutes, 3 oboes, and maybe 2 bassoons. If the school has an orchestra, there may be 20 violins, too.
I suppose every conservatory except perhaps Curtis has equal numbers of clarinet and violin majors.
In a professional orchestra, there may be 20 violins, but at most 4 clarinets. Unless you want to play in an armed forces band, and have to answer to people who care DEEPLY about things like the shine on your shoes and the length of your hair, the possibility of landing a job playing clarinet is close to zero.
Of course, the odds are not a lot better for violinists, but there are a lot more clarinetists out there looking for work, and far too many of them haven't made a mistake in the last 20 years for the likes of you or me to have much of a chance.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2004-03-24 20:13
Licquorice ... you comment is just plain risible, no matter how you look at it, criticise tutti violinists all you like but the strings do the most work. It's the nature of the beast. As to playing difficult wind solos ... so what, I'd like to see any clarinetist point out a solo that is as challenging as the violin solo in Ein Heldenleben (not only extremely difficult but totally exposed) ... and they don't sit there for bars on end wait for their "big moment" they play consistantly. I'm afraid I'm with the string players here ... espeically considering the arguement is about the brass in Mozarts' operas ... basic stuff in comparison.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-03-24 21:30
Rehearsal time alone must be demanding... to get so many bows pulling in unison - and to sound as one string!
I've heard good orchestras elevate to greatness on the strength of a strong string section. I've heard great ones brought low on off nights...
And they are in almost everything.
To paraphrase DS,
"You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-03-24 22:17
sfalexi- Uh, I think that's a little idealistic. We all love music but I think those who depend on it for their living can be excused for considering their income. I'm not sure if music is inherently different as a profession. It's not charity work. That isn't to say I agree with this proposal.
I'm just a student too but I know that something has to feed these people. Orchestral salaries can be truly awful, especially considering the advanced degrees many of the musicians have.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-24 23:12
Yes. That's the ideal reason to play.
However the article fails to point out how much they're currently getting paid. If it's enough to live comfortably, then I don't see the arguement. If not, then I can. But if everyone else can make due on that salary, why can't the strings? Oh. That's right. Cause they have to play more notes. So therefore they NEED more money in order to live. Sorry but I don't see a strong enough correlation here.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-03-25 06:26
Diz wrote: "I'd like to see any clarinetist point out a solo that is as challenging as the violin solo in Ein Heldenleben"
Is it for solo violin or for the 1st violin group? If it's for solo violin, then it will be played by the concertmaster, who gets paid more and does less services than anybody else in the orchestra. But even tutti "solos" aren't as stressful- if you stuff up nobody will know exactly who was playing out of tune (except the neighbouring colleagues!)
"and they don't sit there for bars on end wait for their "big moment" they play consistantly"
This actually makes it easier for them. Try sitting for 20 minutes without playing a note in "Die Zauberflöte" and then coming in with a solo on a cold instrument.
I agree that tutti string players play more actual notes. But wind players are far more exposed and have to be on top form every day.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2004-03-25 15:19
Ken, I must not have made myself completely clear. Good string players are in much greater demand than good clarinet players because there are many more professional positions to fill. They therefore can command a higher price for their services. There is a seemingly unlimited supply of great clarinet players and just not enough jobs for them. When you have Mr. Drucker hanging tough for 50 years, that's two generations of clarinet players who have to look elsewhere for work.
There is very little professional wind band work (outside of the military) left at this point. Even formerly great ensembles like the Goldman Band are on life support and don't work enough to provide a living wage. Most of the concert band work I get (if I even accept the gig) is MPTF jobs, which is barely worth the gasoline to get there.
So, what we need to do is have the Buffet mafia put out hits on the long-service players...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2004-03-25 22:16
As someone who has both worked professionally as a string player and a clarinetist, Licquorice, I don't know what conductors you've worked with but if you think you can hide in the ranks and play out of tune and not get noticed by the concertmaster AND the conductor then you are greatly mistaken.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-03-25 22:17)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-03-26 01:25
I prefer orchestral playing way over band playing!
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-03-26 03:21
Diz makes a good point.
Although the orchestral string players are plentiful in number, there is certainly stress in playing as a section and doing your share.
It only takes one violinist to totally ruin a technically challenging tutti passage.
There is no place to hide ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-03-26 05:52
Fair enough. But I still maintain that as a string player you don't have to always be in top form in the same way that you do as a wind player. Every day we clarinetists have to make sure that we have a good reed. String players don't have to find a good string every day!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-26 14:22
One thing I just realized after thinking about it, is that the initial cost for a violinist is much more than that of a clarinetist. Think of how much just a great BOW costs. More than a great Bb/A clarinet set (mouthpiece and all), brannenized I bet. So in THAT respect I can understand needing more money to make up the difference, or some sort of stiped that will help them regain what was lost during the purchase. However I still say that on the grounds of "we play more notes", it is ridiculous.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-03-26 16:49)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-03-26 16:30
The acoustic output of a Violin under full bow is what, 3-4 times quieter than any horn at full blare?
Most music in orchestral repetoire has strings - with 'flavorings' from other sections. But most definitely, strings.
If you think that strings are easier to play than woodwinds, you haven't heard the beginners in my school district.
* And you think humidity wreaks havoc on your reeds! *
GBK hits the nail on the head - a first and second clarinet player have how many fewer permutations of misalignment to deal with in unison passages?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-03-26 17:59
That's the ticket! Pay should be based on decibels as well as notes. The bass drum player in the Verdi Requiem or a trombone player in the Tchaikovsky 6th is worth 100 violins sawing away all night. The Chicago brass section should make a whole season's worth of lousy viola money in just one run-through of Symphonie Fantastique.
![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-03-27 06:51
How naive to atomize a musical work of art to a sum of single notes, or to stress factors, or decibels, or exposed-ness! Sfalexi has put it in a 19th cent. idealistic way, but a musical composition is not in any way the category a car to be assembled is. There are quite many jobs where one os paid for the time spent and not for the items-to-time-ratio. This discussion the string section started is a typically German example of how hysteric and out-for-the-last-straws everyone here is who has something to do with the arts and tries to pay his/her social insurances by it. This is embedded in the large discussion started by our (Berlin´s) extremely blase and ignorant financial senator, why Berlin needs 3 universities, 3 or more orchestras, so and so many festivals, why this non-profit not directly usable culture-stuff anyway?! And so on...Then the rats on the sinking boat start to rant back that they have to play more notes than the winds...Plain cynical, and very German.
Markus
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-03-27 11:40
Very German, perhaps - but certainly not inimicable.
In the US, we have an 'Arts' television network running a progam known as "PHIL" - about the travails of an UK philharmonic orchestra.
The players (in private, of course) lament their pay, mostly.
Here in the US of A, a few orchestras have gone under when the representative unions refused to accept (draconian) pay cuts.
I think the problems of program relevance and cost lead to financial woe.
The orchestra that performs community outreach developes a younger following. The orchestra that dedicates time to new commissioned works generates interest among the younger adults.
The orchestra that abandons the 'chestnuts' looses gray hair.
If it were my livelihood, I would audition for a band playing Video Game soundtrax - that's where money is spent!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-03-28 19:42
You know I was thinking a little about this type of issue. I was just subbing with a symphony playing the Grand Canyon Suite on bass clarinet and my violinist friend was also subbing in the orchestra. I only played on one piece and he played on all and I nearly made double what he was getting paid per service. Is that really fair? After all he is doing more work.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: marcia
Date: 2004-03-28 20:53
But, if one violin happens to miss a note will anyone know except the guy beside? If the bass clarinet misses a note, most everyone will know. Slight difference in exposure and risk. And yes I do play in an orchestra and have played many solo passages. I know all about the pressure of being "one only" playing a part. I also play in band with many others playing the same part. No comparison.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2004-03-29 20:28
So:
They want more money for playing more notes.
Then they want Soloists, who often play more notes, not to make so much money.
I have a real solution: Tell them to go to hell or learn the Trombone, or at least get a consistent argument not rooted in elitism
-JfW
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2004-03-29 20:38
JfW:
It has been said that learning the trombone is going to hell...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-03-30 19:03
Even if the string players would get more money than the wind players, they wouldn´t get so much richer after all. If they want to have more money, I think then they should do something else than be musicians.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OboeAtHeart
Date: 2004-03-31 23:28
I talked to a few of my orchestral friends about this.
Honestly, neither group is better; there's a very different sound between wind ensambles and string orchestras, and the whole nine yards. Each group has a different purpose and function, and really, no one's better than the other because we're all playing music; and that's the important part.
Haven't been here for awhile, been busy with all manner of auditions! Good to be back.
-Jen.
*~"The clarinet, though appropriate to the expression of the most poetic ideas and sentiments, is really an epic instrument- the voice of heroic love."~*
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
