 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2004-03-16 17:01
PJ's question about the new Rue Lepic Vandorens prompts this question. (I'm not familiar with any of the books on reeds, hence my ignorance); I wonder if the use of chemical fertilizer could be a factor in the loss of quality that many seem to experience. Is cane sourced wild (i.e. does it just grow in a marsh and they cut it) or cultivated, and if cultivated, is it grown like those horrible strawberries and tomatoes, under cloches with tons of artifical fertilizer?
Elizabeth
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-03-16 17:21
I don't know but my teacher claims that he plays on Zonda reeds because (in addition to the fact that he likes them) they come from cane that is not sprayed with insecticides, in contrast to most other reeds. He didn't mention fertilizers! FWIW.
Henry
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2004-03-16 17:46
The website of Davies Cane and Gonzales reeds claims that:
"From the day it is planted until the day it is harvested, no chemical fertilizers or pesticides ever touch this cane. And once harvested, no artificial means of speeding up the drying and maturing processes are used. This cane is all hand tended, sun dried and properly aged before it is allowed to be sold."
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-03-16 18:21
It is interesting that Davie and Gonzalez specifically say that they use no "chemical" fertilisers. Does this mean that they do use natural fertilisers? As a horse-rider, I am quite familiar with natural fertilisers, and I'm not sure I want them on my reeds.....
The (serious) point I'm making is that what is really important in determining the quality of crops is not whether "natural" or "chemical" fertilisers and sprays are used, but the amounts that are used. Unfortunately the proponents of "organic" methods are often motivated more by missionary zeal than by scientific understanding.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2004-03-16 18:25
Dumb question, but what exactly is cane? I mean, from what plant does it come from? :-P
--CG
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-03-16 18:52
CG - its scientific name is Arundo donax, upon which a web search will yield more than you could possibly want to know.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-03-16 21:40
Thanks, David. I read the first Google entry on Arundo Donax. Fascinating! But what amazes me most is the fact(?) that modern science seems to have been incapable of coming up with an equivalent or superior substitute. Or have we actually achieved this with Legere or Fibracel reeds but are unwilling (or too snobbish) to admit it? Perhaps I should devote my retirement to this quest!?
Henry
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-03-16 23:43
http://www.argendonax.com.ar/
This link is to grower of cane for Zonda and Gonzales.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-17 18:34
(Disclaimer - I have developed a genetically altered hybrid species of Arundo Donax [Arundo Donax - Musicalis pat. pend.] which is for sale)
The scientific name is Graminaea, Festuccai, Arundo Donax, Linnaeus according to plant taxonomy. The native plant seems, although the history is somewhat unclear, to have come from Asia and grows wild in many areas of Asia, the Mediterranean, Spain, etc., as well as in the US, South America, Australia, and other spots throughout the world. It has been used for musical reeds for centuries and is mentioned in the earliest recorded history for this purpose. Little selective plant breeding has been done for cane used as a source for woodwind instrument reeds and there are some geographical differences in cane structure and growth habits which are modified by the local soil and climate conditions.
Traditionally the most desirable cane is harvested in the South of France and Spain although some is grown in South America, Australia, and the Western US for woodwind reeds. In the Western US and other areas Arundo Donax is an invasive species that chokes out natural plant species and is considered an environment threat by some (not woodwind players obviously).
Arundo Donax is a "heavy feeder" indicating that nitrogen in the soil - or added as either organic or chemical fertilizer is a growth controlling element. Little published literature is present on the other nutritional elements that affect the growth and structure of Arundo Donax. I have done some testing of my own on the micronutrients, in attition to nitrogen, and potassium, that influence cane growth. Addition of a specified blend of these micronutrients significantly enhances cane growth and alters microstructure. (Data from my own test plots) Insect pests rarely bother cane but mold and rusts can be a problem.
Recently, with advances in plant genetics, it has been possible to map the genetic structure of plant genes and splice and insert genes coding for particular plant characteristics. It is also now possible to grow Arundo Donax in tissue culture which obviates the old method of replanting by divisions of the plant root rhizomes.
The Doctor
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2004-03-17 22:01
Now WHY did you feel you had to 'gentically alter' this plant? You don't say in what way you have gentically altered the 'hybrid species' - what 'particular plant characteristics' you have decided to 'splice and insert' into the 'genes coding'?
Sorry, I do not think this is a positive thing. I prefer argendonax's philosophy. My question is one of quality - if cane reeds produced by intensive methods of cultivation or genetic modification are anything like the hothouse tomatoes that are nothing like tomatoes, no thanks.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-03-17 22:42
Like the doctor I was of the impression that very few insect pests attack reed cane. It is more a issue of whether any preservatives have been used to stop mould etc. developing after manufacture. Here are some personal observations.
Some reeds seem to have preservative impregnated all the way through the fibres. On rare occasions I have heard people complain of a reaction, usually from American reeds. Some reeds do not seem to have any preservative at all.
Reeds Australia products, I use Vintage myself, appear to be preservative free. They will get a bit mouldy after use if they are not dried and stored correctly. The other products in the range, ie. Studio and Studio Plus, behave similarly. They have a sort of a sweet taste when they come out of the box.
Of the Vandoren's the saxophone V16 does not appear to have any preservative. These reeds, straight out of the poly-propylene wrapper, are often discoloured with what appears to be water damage. The blue box and Java probably don't have any, or very little, sinister additions. They are fairly bland to the taste.
I personally use Lavoz reeds on saxophone and find these to be the least tainted of the Rico products. I would say that the Rico Royal was the most tainted. These babies are so perfect on the flat side that they seem to have been bleached. They have a bitter taste when first put in the mouth which I tend to think comes from some sort of additive.
I think the organically grown claim is a whole lot of rubbish, just marketing hype. Arundo donax grows wild, so much so that in some countries it is a feral pest. This sort of cane is not subject to a whole lot of pest problems, it grows just like grass. As for fertilisation, or nitrogenisation, I am not sure but I know of an old guy locally who had a patch of arundo donax growing at the end of his back yard and he used to make his own bassoon, sax and clarinet reeds. He did this for years and it was free and he did nothing except cut it down and dry it. I tried some of his bassoon reeds and they worked as well as any others.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2004-03-18 08:42
Ah! Makes sense now. I always felt like a cannibal for eating bamboo shoots, now I know the difference between cane and bamboo. :P
--CG
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-03-19 01:45
This is not an advertisement. I did not want to go into the specific attributes of my genetically altered strain of Arundo Donax but will just state some of the issues that might be improved, perhaps, by such a strain or natural plant breeding program. My genetically altered species does not have all of these traits.
Much of the cane grown is of variable diameter and thickness. Growers will usually go through a field and rip out the cane plants of smaller diameter but there is still great variability and only cane of a certain diameter for the intended reed - clarinet, bass clarinet, sax, oboe, etc. ultimately gets used and the waste factor for cane of other diameters is 20-40%. A trait which gives cane a more uniform set of diameters and thickness would be useful.
Cane growth among wild cane varies and some subspecies in certain areas of the world have more aggressive growth than others. Mature cane height may vary from eight feet to more than 30 feet in height. A trait for more aggressive growth and terminal height would be useful to increase the total yield per acre.
Cane structure - the arrangement of fibers, density of fibers, number of water tubules, etc. vary within a species and among species and sub species of Arundo Donax. A trait that would give a denser and tighter fiber configuration with more straight fiber bundles might be useful.
Cane is usually very drought resistant and water tolerant but not very cold tolerant. There are certain areas of the world that have an ideal climate for cane growth but others are marginal because of water and temperature considerations. Genes from subspecies that have adapted to more harsh temperature environments might be spliced into a new species to give it better geographical diversity in growth potential.
Certain subspecies of Arundo Donax are more tolerant to mold and rust infections. This trait might be useful.
There are about 10 other traits that might make a genetic variant or hybrid cross bred subspecies of Arundo Donax more useful for woodwind reed qualities and could be incorporated into a genetic variant.
Of course climate and soil conditions modify the expression and growth of any plant but with the proper supplementation with micronutrients the nutrition aspects could be controlled.
The issues of genetically altered plant species are a hot topic of discussion but even with the corn that we eat today containing the "sweetness gene" we are moving in the direction of controlling traits in a number of food and non food plant species. I feel that the genetic diversity in a native species should be preserved at all costs but that genetically altered plant species for a specific purpose can be better suited for that purpose than many natural species.
The Doctor
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