 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-03-11 12:04
There have been a number of threads over the years regarding the date that the Carre R-13 went into production at Buffet. The consensus is that it happened somewhere post-1955 with serial # in the 48000-49000 range. For those like me who are interested in such arcana, a well-known, on-line auction service has an excellent photo of a pre-R13 instrument with serial # 48707. You can clearly see the shared G#/A post.
In order to comply with the posting rules of this board I have not included the url of the listing, but interested parties can search on the serial #. I have no association with the listing nor am I bidding on the instrument.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-03-11 14:49
48707 (1954 or -55) is the highest pre-R-13 SN I've heard of. The lowest R-13 SN I've found is 48830 (1955). However, there were R-13 prototypes that were sold around that time. (I've seen one, without a serial number, which the owner told me he bought at the factory in 1954.)
You can easily tell the difference by the shape of the key guide for the top two trill keys. The pre-R-13 guide had flat, triangular prongs. The R-13 has a cylinder with a slot cut down the middle. This shows clearly on the eBay photo.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-11 15:53
It would seem that, when in doubt, a definitive answer should always come WITH a BORE measurement. Keywork is interchangeable. (which brings to mind the "flat spring, round spring controversy")
sn 50,xxx is a good bet for "poly bore" R13's.
best,
mw
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-03-11 19:24
The lowest serial number for R-13 that was reported on this board is 45451 (1953). This clarinet belonged to Robert Marcellus.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=134954&t=134746
Robert Carree designed polycylindrical bore in 1950. Buffet did not adopt the R-13 designation until 1955. In 1955 the "R-13" was introduced as a model name.
With this introduction of the R-13 the throat "A" and "G#" keys got separate posts. THIS NEW KEY DESIGN SIGNIFIES the SWITCH and that's what identifies newly introduced R-13 from the rest of so called R-13s that were made before the introduction. The lowest serial number I've seen with the separate post design is 49950.
Pre R13? What does it mean? Does it mean 'Predates' or 'Prestige'? NO! When we talk about polycylindrical design 'Pre' means "PRECURSOR". (be careful when you buy an instrument on eBay with the Pre R-13 description. Many sellers interpret 'Pre' as 'Predates', which has nothing to do with polycylindrical bore design).
Pre R-13 or early R-13 were made during 1950-1955. The throat "A" and "G#" keys shared a single post and the key guide for the top two trill keys had flat, triangular prongs. Without measuring the bore you can't tell the deference between Polycylindrical and Master bore instrument made during 1950-1955 period.
The lowest Pre R-13 serial number I've worked on is 39003 (1952), It was polycylindrical, shared post design.
Mr. Francois Kloc wrote:
"Robert Caree designed the Poly-cylindrical concept around 1950 then Buffet made what they called the No1 which was a pre R13 with this new bore design and was pitched at 440. The R13 production using R13 name started in 1955. So I can tell you with almost full insurance that your instrument is a Poly cylindrical clarinet N01 which I would compare with the early R13. I hope this help and that it's sound clear to you".
___________________________
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
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Author: sherrietanner
Date: 2004-03-11 22:25
I gather, I think? that this horn is worthwhile, yes? What should be a fair price as the seller has it in excellent condition and "just overhauled". Anyone?
Sherrie
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2004-03-12 00:43
Thanks Vytas for the valuable information regarding the early 50's Buffets. You apparently were able to get some additional information from Mr. Kloc that I had not seen here previously.
Your information confirms what I had guessed based on information from an ex- Buffet employee and from O. Lee Gibsons writings, namely that Caree's polycylindrical bore was used in the professional level Buffets from 1950 or 1951 on experimentally, and evolved gradually toward the fairly stable status of 1955.
For what it is worth: I have a 1951 Buffet in the 37000 series that I have owned since it was purchased new. It has a decidedly conical (and I believe polycylindrical) bore in the upper section. The top tenon has become a little oval, but just below the tenon it measures a reliable 14.90mm. At the bottom of the section it is 14.74mm. My telescope gauge's handle is too short to measure up into the area below the register tube, but it is clear that the bore reduces toward the bottom. The barrel reduces from top to bottom also, like a Moennig. It measures roughly 15mm down to 14.8mm.
So, clearly as early as 1951 Caree was experimenting with something definitely not a cylindrical bore. And the placement of the register hole, bell length, etc. makes clear that its design was already that of the "vintage" R-13.
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Author: Beth
Date: 2004-03-19 19:40
thank god I found this thread. I just posted my own message questioning what kind of Buffet Bflat wooden clarinet I have. The number on the barrel is R13B68. Would that mean an R-13 with the serial number B68.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-03-19 19:46
Beth wrote:
> The number on the barrel is R13B68. Would that mean an R-13
> with the serial number B68.
No... The number on the barrel is not the serial number of the clarinet. The R13B68 designation is for a 68mm barrel for an R13 clarinet.
The serial numbers for an R13 clarinet are found on the lower portion on both the upper and lower joints.
If, as you noted, the bell of your clarinet says "Carl Fischer", my guess is that the barrel you have is a newer Buffet replacement barrel ...GBK
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Author: Beth
Date: 2004-03-19 20:36
well, I can only see 520 on the bottom of the lower peice. and "LP" under "Carl Fischer"
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-03-19 22:36
This clarinet was made 1910-1930. Barrel is not original.
If the clarinet does not have Buffet logo on other parts (like the one on the barrel), this clarinet is not a Buffet.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-03-20 16:23
Beth,
Your instrument is a professional vintage model made in 1928 and imported to US by Carl Fischer. "LP" mark stands for "low pitch" (440Hz). This is not R-13.
The barrel (non–original) belongs to R-13 clarinet. The barrel has correct length for your instrument. The question is if this barrel is suitable for this clarinet.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
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