 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JP
Date: 2001-08-08 03:32
I need a little help determining the age of a clarinet I recently purchased for my son at an estate sale. It's stamped in an oval shape "EVETTE & SCHAEFFER PARIS FRANCE MODELE BUFFET CRAMPON" On one of the sections is stamped near the joint what appears to be a serial number. I believe it is 193. However it may be 793. But it is nothing like the serial numbers discussed on this board, Dxxxxx. This seems to date it to 1928 using the serial numbers for buffet clarinets. Does that seem right? If it does date to 1928, what would its value be and would it be a good starter clarinet for my son?
Thanks,
JP
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-08-08 04:57
E & S clarinets do not follow the Buffet serial number lists. Please do a search here on the BBoard for more information on the E & S clarinets.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 11:33
E & S were student line clarinets. Some (master model & ES models) were purported to be R-13 '"seconds" or "blems". We have many Sneezyites who covet their Evette & Evette Schaeffer Clarinets. No doubt they "login" here. mw
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-08-08 12:49
Whatcha bet this horn was made during the WWII years?
Here's a possibility, measure the internal bore (ID) of the upper joint, where it connects to the lower joint.
Is it possible that some of the serial number is obscured?
Wipe a little baby powder or cornstarch over the serial number to fill in any of the other embossed numbers (might turn up alla nuttin').
If it's > 14.7 mm betcha it was 'born' before 1945.
The Serial number 193 and 793 both fail to come up under 'Student clarinets'
in the Buffet search page.
Lastly, lookit the Left Hand E and F# spatula keys. Older designs had them share the same pivot screw. Newer desings (don't ask ME the cutoff date, dunno)
have each key on it's own steel, like the modern Buffet R13.
If the bore is large (14.80 mm or more) you could have your hands full trying to fit in with other players. Then again, I AM a hack...
anji
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-08-08 13:29
Anji -
Buffet keywork went through a number of changes that can be used to date the instruments.
On old Buffets, the low F# key used a flat spring that went under the key for the right little finger. A brass screw came all the way up through the key, and you can see it when you look at the top. In the mid-1920s, they went to the needle spring design used today.
The single, concentric pivot design for the left-hand E/B and F#/C# keys changed to separate posts in about 1929.
At about the same time, they started putting an adjusting screw on the throat Ab key.
The C#/G# key for the left little finger also had a flat spring under it, with the brass screw coming up to the top surface, until the early 1930s. Then they went to a steel screw that did not come through to the upper surface.
On pre-R-13 Buffets, the bottom end of the throat Ab key and the side of the throat A key were mounted on the same post. Also, the key guide for the upper two trill keys was a flat piece of metal bent into a "U" shape and trimmed to a triangular shape.
With the introduction of the R-13 in the early 1950s, the C#/G# key used a needle spring, the throat Ab and A keys got separate posts and the trill key guide became a column with a slot in it.
I'm not sure when Buffet bought Evette. A Klarinet archive search will tell you. I think once Evette was bought, Buffet started using their own key design on them, so these indicators should also work for Evette instruments.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-08 13:38
I have a very good E&S wood , [my "poor man's " R13] which I will check out via Ken's and other's info here and report. Mark C, does your Buffet inf discuss E and maybe S? Tks. Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-08 16:34
My ser # is K3456, and via the former owners I date it to 1970-80's. It seems to be fairly large bore, is larger [top of UJ] than a '60-70's Selmer barrel I have. Will measure when I have time. Don
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Author: JP
Date: 2001-08-08 17:57
Thanks for the info. The serial number on my E&S is definitely only three numbers and is only stamped next to one of the joints. The first number isn't stamped very well, but I'm pretty sure it's a 1.
As far as the bore sizes, it's different at each joint - i.e. it only fit's together one way. I assumed that that was normal. If there is a specific bore I should measure, .
Most of the springs are needle springs. There are six flat springs used, all on the same section. I'll have to do a little more homework to tell you what keys they are associated with.
As far as who owns who, according to this link
http://www.wichitaband.com/new.html#clarinet
"Paul Evette and Ernest Schaeffer bought the firm in 1885. 'Evette and Schaeffer' clarinets were the 'step up' instruments from Buffet until about 1980. A public corporation since 1929, the company was absorbed into the Boosey-Hawkes conglomerate in 1981. "
So it seems that it may be incorrect to suggest that E&S clarinets were not manufactured by Buffet. They just were not the best made by Buffet.
JP
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 20:04
JP, there were 2 (distinct/different) student lines of clarinet .... _Evette_ and _Evette & Schaeffer_. mw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-08-08 23:01
Ken,
Buffet did not replace the flat spring on the C#/G# key with the introduction of the polycylindrical R13 in the early 50's. That change didn't come until much later, probably around 1970. (My 1969 R13 still has the flat spring. These models are still sought after by some players.)
Also, as late as 1934 (I have a friend with a pair of professional Buffet clarinets manufactured that year), Buffet was still manufacturing at least some (if not all) of its clarinets without the adjusting screw on the Ab key. (Don't know when the change came.)
I don't know when they made this change either, but I have an E&S A-series which likely dates from the 1930's (no adjusting screw on the Ab key) that has a slotted column key guide for the top two trill keys identical to that on my 1963 R13. Ditto for a couple of pre-1950 Evettes (though the "column" is smaller).
Finally, it is a common misconception that Buffet acquired Evette & Schaeffer. In fact, It was the other way around the partners Evette & Schaeffer, purchased Buffet. From a post to the Klarinet list from Mark Charette in Feb., 1999 (I believe Mark is quoting at least in part from Langwell's):
"Paul Evette and Ernest Scheaffer _bought_ Buffet in 1885; 1918 Maurice
Evette succeeded Paul.
Evette & Schaeffer clarinets were manufactured at the Buffet factory
from 1885-1929; in 1929 a new firm was founded called Buffet-Crampon,
even though this name had never been dropped. The Buffet-Crampon name
had been created by Jean Louis Buffet (d. 1865) (after marrying Mlle.
Zoe Crampon to distinguish it from his rival & uncle, Auguste Buffet
jeune.
I have the Buffet family chart & history at:
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?id=576
Cheers,
----
Mark Charette@sneezy.org"
Unfortunately, the link no longer seems to work (at least for me).
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-08-08 23:30
Don,
The Boosey & Hawkes serial number chart will show your instrument as made in the year 0! The lowest number it has a real date for is around K4745. It shows 1952 as the manufacturing date of that one instrument, 1953 for K4746 and then seems fairly normal from 1953 on. It seems likely, there is a glitch in the chart or formula used. If yours is truly numbered K3456, it probably dates to 1950-52. On the other hand if there is a digit worn away and its K3456x, then it would date to 1974.
Is yours a master model? I mentioned in a similar recent thread that I had never seen a K-series E&S numbered below around 10000, that wasn't a master model. Perhaps you have my counterexample.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-09 02:22
Thanx, Jack, for the info and added questions, made me look VERY carefully. Sorry, no ? about ser # , its clean and definitely only K3456 [both joints], the E&S oval markings say Modele Sponsored Buffet Crampon. It has the C#/G# flat spring, secured by a small screw under the touch . the "combined" throat A and Ab post [refer to Ken S's post] and triangular key guard. I looked at my and Sneezy's ser # lists , and wondered if the K had a numerical significance [a 1000 wouldn't work well]. I'll measure the UJ bores tomorrow to see if that sheds any light. As Shakespeare said, "Much ado about not very much". TKS, Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 04:26
I just looked at one of mine. K533 (on both joints). No adjusting screw in the G#/Ab key. Stamped "E & S Modele Buffet Crampon. Made in France" on the J/J. L/J & Bell. Come to think of it, I didn't check the Barrel. Best, mw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-09 18:07
In my second post, please delete the "sponsored" on the wood pieces, it appears on an Evette plastic barrel I obtained from my friend's junk box, to allow reaching a slightly higher tuning pitch, playing against FM [NPR] radio. MY measured dimensions show about .008-9 " diff between top and bot of the UJ, 14.8 mm top, vs 14.5 bot [am not sure of the condition of the caliper]. It seems to me that this "taper" dates the horn "After-Carree". The C# has the only flat spring, the bridge keys have no "ears", the horn has more playing resistance than my Selmers/LeBlancs. FWI All W. Don
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Author: marzi
Date: 2004-03-10 01:28
neither i nor our local music repair shop(and they're very good) can find
the serial number of my evette "sponsered by" . its k5 588 or k5 538,
and not well stamped it seems , its crooked. any idea? thanks much.
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Author: Panamared
Date: 2004-03-10 16:46
What is this based upon? I looked the Sn. up on the Sneezy.org site and it
said" Sn K515-999 1897"
This would make sense as the Company, "Evette&Scheaffer" was sold and became Buffet-Crampon in 1929.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-03-10 18:23
Panamared wrote:
> What is this based upon? I looked the Sn. up on the Sneezy.org
> site and it
> said" Sn K515-999 1897"
That is for Buffet clarinets only, not E & S.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-03-10 21:38
>>>This would make sense as the Company, "Evette&Scheaffer" was sold and became Buffet-Crampon in 1929.<<<
This is not entirely true. Evette & Shaeffer model has been made until 1980s and it always was one step below their professional 'Buffet Crampon' model.
Paul Evette and Ernest Schaeffer bought the firm (Buffet) in 1885. It became a public corporation in 1929.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-03-11 15:01
Panamared, have you looked thoroughly in the archives here? There really is a lot of info on these clarinets. I don't know when E & S clarinets started their K series. I think Vytas would know, if he says 1930, good. I have a 1960 E & S, SN K9008, and I think they went up through the 70's.
W
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Author: Panamared
Date: 2004-03-11 18:08
The instrument which I possess is labeled, Evette&Scheaffer Buffet-Crampon. Is this consistant with the newer models?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-03-11 19:47
Attachment: E&S_K179_1930.jpg (80k)
1929-1930 E&S K179. (check the pic) This instrument was in my collection for a long time so there is no mistake that K-series started this early.
Evette & Shaeffer model became E13 model around 1980.
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