 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2004-03-03 21:28
I've recently returned to the clarinet, after a hiatus of more than 60 years. (STOP LAUGHING!) Along the way, my grandson hss taken up the instrument; he's 8. So I went on eBay and bought a couple of horns to make playable. I've been succesful for the most part. But in one case after repadding, etc., I found that I just couldn't get any air (tone) through the lower section. It was as though something was blocking the air flow. Any ideas what causes this?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-03-03 21:54
No one's laughing, rmr25; this is serious stuff. Did you look into the bore to see if something's in there? A repair tech I know recently fished a mouthpiece cap out of a sax he was overhauling - it'd been in there for over a year. When the player brought it in he said the horn had been "blowing a little stuffy lately" ....
If the bore is clear and you can't get any sound (tone) I would suspect a giant leak - like when you forget to put a pad in one of the cups.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-03-03 22:25
I had the same problem with a sax......it was the pad saver.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-03-03 22:37
There's more likely a leak.
The last note you can sound is probably the tonehole that doesn't cover.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2004-03-03 22:44
It seems that there's an easy test to decide it's a leak vs a stoppage. If you can finger low E and get air to pass through the clarinet, it's not a stoppage. If you can't get air to pass, call Roto-Rooter. Or...
I was playing in a show when the other clarinetist told me that his horn was stopped up. The mouthpiece cap was stuck in the bell.
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2004-03-03 23:40
Thanks guys. (Ignore the second post: my PC indicated the first one hadn't gone thru, so I sent it again. Sorry).
I can't see any blockages. When I run the test light, I don't see any leaks. I'm just wondering: is it possible something is amiss with the nmouthpiece/barrel section? When I blow just the mouthpiece and barrel, I get the usual tone, though.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-03-04 00:24
Just a guess, but it's possible you didn't get one of the springs properly positioned on a "normally closed" key (like the sliver key). If it is staying open, it would mess up everything below it.
John
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-04 06:20
Try taking the mouthpiece and barrel off and separating the top and bottom joints. Then cover the holes of the top joint, cover the bottom with your other hand, then blow into it and listen for leaking air. Same with bottom joint (finger a low E). I trust that more than a leak light cause it's easier to sense the back pressure and feel for a leak while blowing to me.
You're sure that you're properly covering all the holes with your finger tips? Have you had other clarinetists try it? have you tried other clarinets?
I really think it's a problem with the instrument rather than the mouthpiece barrel (I saw the same problem on a bundy that my little sister received from the school. I couldn't get any note past the top joint to play. I remedied it by allowing her to use my backup clarinet. A bad Rene Duval, but it was still better than that bundy).
My money (well, if I had money to put on this) is on a pad leak or a leaky finger.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-03-04 11:47
sfalexi has a good point. If another clarinetist can use yours, then the instrument is basically in good shape. If you try another couple of clarinets that you know work, then you'll find out if it's you, or the clarinet.
I'm wondering though, since you said this happened after it was repadded. Perhaps one of the bigger pads isn't sitting properly, and a little adjustment would mean the difference between frustration and success. (A need for the infamous "key clamp", or velcro to get that key to sit while it's stored?) Again, see if another clarinetist would try it.
Remember too, that to get the low notes you actually have to provide a stronger air stream, and have a looser embouchure. Good air support and opening your chest and throat are requirements for playing anything, but the lack of support would show up more while attempting the low notes.
Please let us know when you find out what the problem was.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-03-04 12:35
Rather than one large leak, you could well have 27 small leaks!
In my view a leak light is totally inadequate for detecting leaks on a clarinet, although it is fine for a sax, which has low tone hole walls, opaque pads, and a shiny, reflective bore.
For light to leak out past a clarinet pad, it mus leave the bore, travel up rather long, rather narrow, very dark hole with a non-reflective surface, the turn a corner, and travel through a very small (often less than 0.001") slit without being diffused through the rather translucent pad membrane, and then still have enough intensity to be noticed by the operator, from amy possible direction around the pad, in a room which is probably not totally darkened.
Light just does not do that!
Put a cork in the end of a section of clarinet, cover all the holes with LIGHT finger pressure, fill the mouth with air, BLOCK THE THROAT with the back of the tongue, and then attempt to very GENTLY, with very low pressure, 'SQUIRT' that mouthful of air into the clarinet. If you notice the volume of air decreasing inside your mouth in order to maintain that slight pressure, then you have a leak.
Blowing form the lungs is not a valid accurate detection method, because a slight volume change cannot be detected. Hence small leaks pass unnoticed.
Sometimes the LOCATION of the leak can be identified by then blowing from the lungs, much harder, until escaping air can be heard. Press the various key cups until you find one that reduces the hiss of the escaping air.
For more definitive location around the pad, a 'feeler', say mylar or cellophane, approx 0.001" thick should be used.
See the recent thread, "Feeler gauges."
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Author: William
Date: 2004-03-04 14:45
"You're sure that you're properly covering all the holes with your finger tips?"
This could be a result of the rings being too high to allow a proper seal between the fingers and the tone hole chimney tops. Usually caused by a bent bridge key or a too low B2 pad. Just a thought..........
From my "Greatest Moments" archives, here's a short--but perhaps relavent--item. One night last season, just before the start our symphony orchestra concert, the principal clarinetist turned to me (second clarinet) and said, "My clarinet won't work--you are going to have to play all the solos this evening. I just don't know what's wrong". She had checked all the keys and pads and found everything to be "in place". I offered to take a look and was about to try her clarinet with my mouthpiece when I took a quick look down the bore--and discovered a blockage in the lower joint. Further "investigation" revealed that a tube of cork grease had become lodged half-way up and was causing the problem. Drawing upon my many years as a middle school band director, I quickly borrowed a tympani stick from a nearby percussionist and inserted it down the bore to pound out the LeBlanc cork grease tube--and "save the night" for my Principal clarinetist (who was grateful but did not find the situation as amuesing as I and many other orchestra members did). So, have you checked your bore lately??
In all seriousness, your problem is most likely a leak which can be easily fixed by a repair techician. Welcome back--what took you so long??
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2004-03-04 15:46
Group:
I found the problem, actually two problems. I'll explain at some length, in hopes this may help some other amateur repairperson.
Most of you suggested, rightly, that it was a leak. First, I found a hairline crack in the barrel. Second, there was a weak spring on the pad cup for the lower joint F# key. My test light didn't reveal either one. So I tried a pressure test. I put the mouthpiece, reed and barrel together and stopped the end with my palm. Then by blowing hard I detected the crack leak. For the lower joint, I did the same: stopped the bell with a plug, closed all the holes for the low E and then just blew hard down the lower joint tube from the top tenon. I saw the F# key move just barely. It turned out to be a weak spring, since the pad had seated ok.
That done, with your help, I now wonder about the physics, acoustics. How can leaks slow down and virtually stop air flow in a cylinder? The only answer I could come up with was via the often-used water analgy. Imagine a pipe with water flowing at a set rate/volume. If the pipe develops a crack, some water will try to exit there. This will cause eddies, whirlpools, turbulence. This interrupts the smooth flow. If the pressure increases significantly, the impedence increases with it, creating a virtual dam. Is that what was happening in this case with my clarinet?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-03-04 21:48
The water analogy is not appropriate, because any flow of air THROUGH a clarinet is irrelevant to the production of sound. It is just a byproduct of the means used to get the reed vibrating.
Think of the air inside a clarinet as a violin string. (The air movement through the instrument is equivalent to the movement of the violin bow across the string - nothing more)
Very lightly touch a bowed string exactly half way along its length and you get a harmonic - the note sounds an octave higher - because the string vibrates now in two parts. Place your finger 1/3 of the way along, and you get a different harmonic.
Having a leak on a clarinet is the same as touching the violin string. This occurs because where the leak is, there is some equalising of the air pressure inside the clarinet to the pressure of the outside air, hence reducing or stopping the vibration of the air column at that location. Hence the instrument is less inclined to sound the fundamental note required of it, and more inclined to sound a harmonic.
This is exactly what the register key tone hole does - provide a leak to induce the air column to quit vibrating at its fundamental frequency. It is a deliberate leak, ands ideally should be in a different location for every note. It is amazing that it works as well as it does for such a wide range of notes.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-03-04 22:09
Gordon(NZ)...You said that very well! In addition, I doubt that a small leak would give rise to turbulent flow.
rmr25...You say you "found the problem" but you didn't tell us whether your problem has now been eliminated. Please let us know.
Henry
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2004-03-05 00:28
I did solve he problem.
For the barrel crack, I simply smeared some Rerree's Blak Magic epoxy into the space. That'll hold me until I can replace the barrel. For the pad cup, I merely replaced the weak spring. I did, however, place the elastic tension band on that cup overnight to give the pad a little deeper seat. It now plays fine. BTW, it's an older Normandy "Special."
I stand corrected on using a water analgy, thanks to Gordon's excellent explanation of air movement. No Mas! I'm still perplexed, though, at the strong feeling that the air simply didnd't seem to be producing any effect in the lower joint tones. I understand that air is simply the medium that supports the reed's vibrations, as Gordon explained it. But even so, that air still has to move, doesn't it? As some of you noted, all kinds of things have gotten stuck inside the bore. And they sure had effects on the flow and sound.
But enough. I'm truly grateful to all of you who helped me work this thing out.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-03-05 02:22
You may not need to replace the barrel. Barrels can be expensive, but if the epoxy holds and works, why replace it? And if it doesn't, see if it can be pinned or filled in. Why bother spending 100 dollars on a new barrel when you can save a HUGE amount of money and just get it fixed?
Then, with the money you save, you can buy a quality beginner mouthpiece if you don't have one already, with a good ligature to match.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2004-03-05 15:56
Alexi:
You're right. Another thin coat of Black Magic epoxy seems to have brought the barrel to as-original playing condition. So you saved me $100!. As for mouthpieces, I have six: Selmer HS*; Yamaha4C; Noblet 2V; Conn; a cheapo Belmonte; and a 70-year old Buffet Crampon Paris. The Buffet seems to be my favorite and it's what I used as a student more than 60 years ago! Any thoughts about the others?
Bob
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-03-05 16:20
Since your barrel did develop a crack the rest of the wood may have a low moisture level. Give some thought to restoring the moisture level slowly before you start playing it regularly.
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