 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: shaunm
Date: 2004-02-25 20:02
My father has several woodworking and metalworking tools, including a wood lathe and a Smithy milling machine, and I came up with the idea that I would like to try to make a clarinet. It's all I've been able to think about for the last couple days. I know a clarinet's design is complex and there are many matters of precision that influence it's sound, but I want to give it a try anyway. I'm up for a challenge. I figured I would start by making a barrel and a bell and see how they turn out. I've done some research on different types of wood and I think that a polished bright-orange piece of cocobolo wood would make a beautiful clarinet!! I have a few concerns:
1. I've read so many warnings about clarinet cracking and I'm worried that my clarinet would crack. What are my options in wood treatment to prevent cracks? Also, does anyone know if cocobolo would be a good choice of wood regarding cracking and general stability with climate changes? My father has tons of scrap red oak laying around, so I'll probably practice with that. Does anyone know how it would hold up to climate changes.
2. I would have to measure and duplicate another clarinet if I wanted to attempt putting keys on it and tuning it. I've got a yamaha clarinet, but I'd rather duplicate one that sounds great (I'm sure I'll need all of the advantages I can get!!). I'm not too worried about the turning and boring of the clarinet body. It's the keyholes and tuning that I think will give me trouble. Some of the keyholes are elevated past the radius of the clarinet, which complicates the turning process. I'll probably have to insert a vertical wood cylinder after turning the body! Ughh. Can anyone offer any advice about how to go about this or things I should keep in mind while planning my strategy, such as the order and method in which I should tune the keyholes. If anyone is educated in this area and is willing to help me, I have several questions regarding tuning and the different factors that influence it. A concern is that I may not get the volume inside the clarinet exact to the one I'm duplicating, so can the diameter of my keyholes compensate for that difference?
3. As mentioned in 2, I would have to duplicate another clarinet so the keys would match. I'm still working on how this is going to work. An ideal scenario would be if I could find a broken high-end clarinet with its keys intact. I could duplicate the clarinet and use the keys from it. Another scenario is to duplicate a clarinet in a store and try to find matching keys later on. Can anyone offer any ideas on this? Does anyone have or know of a broken high-end clarinet that is for sale and cheap? Also, any recommendations on a clarinet I should look for?
4. This is just a question I'm curious about. How does the shape of the bell influence the sound? I've heard of some clarinet bells have some kind of chamber that helps it sound better. How does that work.
In conclusion. I know making a clarinet is an art. But, as an artist, I'm willing to learn from my failed attempts and improve. The more I know going in, the better my results will be. So if anyone can offer advise or know of any resources that I could benefit from, please let me know. Thanks.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-25 20:15
Shaun -
I think you've bitten off more than you can chew.
Making a professional clarinet requires skills developed over a lifetime and many elaborate, expensive machines specially made for that particular purpose. For example, no matter how good your workshop, you aren't set up to forge keys, let alone shape them and file them into the final shape, complete with pad cups, tiny holes for needle springs and screw-in posts. For the bore, you'll need to make numerous reamers, each one custom-tapered.
Not to metion getting a supply of wood and seasoning it for several years.
Walk before you run. Arthur Benade's book Horns, Strings & Harmony has complete plans for making a basic clarinet out of, as I recall, polyethylene tubing. Try that first.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-02-25 20:18
I truly admire your chutzpah! But wouldn't you want to start out with a plastic liquorice stick first? Also, as long as you don't know the reason for the flatness of your Yamaha (if any; see your previous thread), don't use that one as a model!
Henry
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Author: shaunm
Date: 2004-02-25 20:55
I have experience with woodworking and woodturning and I would start out with a barrel and a bell, which I know I can make and have them turn out well. I can at least use them on my Yamaha if I think they look good on it. I doubt they would make it sound any cheaper than it already does.
If I decide to go on to make the rest of the clarinet, I wouldn't be making any of the keys. I'll have to find keys somewhere and duplicate the clarinet that the keys belong to. I have access to a Smithy, among other metalsmithing tools, so I can make any tapered boring tools and special keyhole drilling bits that I'll need. Also, many exotic wood distributors sell seasoned wood. I don't have doubts about my ability to make the physical shape of the clarinet. It's a heck of a challenge, but with enough planning and careful craftsmanship, it can be done. My doubts are in my ability to tune it. As you know, I don't know much about tuning, and this would be an excellent learning experience. And again, this is for fun. If it doesn't work out, I'll have at least had fun trying. I guess I'm looking in the wrong place for help with the woodworking, but I would appreciate any ideas or help with finding a set of keys or with tuning it.
Shaun
Post Edited (2004-02-25 21:03)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-02-25 21:42
Shaun: I also applaud your initiative. I wouldn't try to use oak for the barrel or bell, however. Boxwood would be a better material to experiment with. Yes, you will be subject to the same cracking potential as all other wood clarinet makers. For openers you might want to try black Delrin rod for the barrel.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-02-25 22:17
I think you are biting off FAR more than you can chew.
Re cocobolo - get informed by searching pairs of words such as [cocobolo machining], [cocobolo properties], and [cocobolo clarinet]
It is used for musical instruments, but beware of the possibility of it causing dermatitis. See http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermL/LEGU.html
If you do not have the acoustic knowledge to work out the parameters that make your Yamaha, to you, out of tune, then any instrument you make is likely to be much further out of tune. There will be a thousand times as much design know-how in that Yamaha clarinet than there will be in your home made one!
You will need to buy, or have the machinery to make a range of specialised tools. Turning a piece of wood is possibly the easiest part. For example, do you have the equipment to make a reamer for the bore?
Are you aware that for clarinet posts, the holes in the body are drilled, tapped with a special thread, the posts screwed in, THEN the posts drilled and one of them tapped, THEN the key adjusted for size to fit exactly between the posts, THEN the post counter-bored to allow the pivot screw to enter the key just the right amount. To carry this process out in reverse is courting disaster!
If you locate a broken clarinet, how about giving your attention to doing a graft joint where it is broken. That task would at least be a realistic undertaking.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-02-25 22:17
Ken is correct, as it is a most ambitious project requiring specialized equipment.
Take a tour of Guy Chadash's site to look at some of the manufacturing process.
Start with this first page and then follow the process on the other pages:
http://www.chadashclarinet.com/finishing.htm ...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-25 22:48
Shaunm ... don't listen to those that tell you your project is too ambitious or that you've bitten off more than you can chew.
I congratulate your zeal and wish you luck.
I would humbly suggest you start with something a little simpler (blockflote maybe) and work up to a clarinet ... but that's just my two cents worth. You never know what talents you might have inherited from your father in this field and end up the next "stephen fox" ... who can tell ... you go for it and good on you.
diz | sydney
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-02-26 20:50)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-02-25 23:38
Don't forget that you don't have to create a whole clarinet to be an 'artist', as there are many people who specialize in only certain parts of the clarinet for their artistry (most common I believe to be are mouthpieces and barrels). And that's a delicate enough process.
In any event, good luck with the project. One day when I have a garage filled with tools that I hardly ever use I'll start doing my own projects. Who knows . . . some of you out there may be calling me or shaun in the future asking for us to do some "custom clarinet work" for you!
Who knows?
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-02-26 04:19
shaunm, good for you. Perhaps you'll get it right, which hasn't yet happened over about 300 years with thousands of Clarinet builders. No one yet has got it right.
Check the posts on this Bulletin Board and you will see a plethora of tales regarding what is wrong with Clarinets. Doesn't matter who made them or how old they are, someone will be delighted to tell you how bad they are. Any of them.
The tolerances required for the manufacture of a proper Clarinet are much too tight to measure and adjust in all the places where they need to be measured and adjusted; that's why it's an art. You have to know what every wee nuance of the bore, hole position, hole shape, and a few dozen other things will do to the tone.
Any musical instrument reference will (or should) tell you the Clarinet is the most difficult "conventional" musical instrument to design, as it is a huge wad of compromises stuck together. And every designer has an individual approach to those compromises. Personally, I think some are unnceccessary and others are big mistakes. Some others think I'm nuts. The smart ones say, "I don't know... why not try?"
So that's what I'll say. I have no idea if you will build a wonderful Clarinet or a bad piece of kindling. But if you want to try, have a ball. Maybe you'll get it right.
Regards,
John
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-02-26 04:34
Red Oak will not hold up to moisture, and tends to tear out when turned. The African hardwoods are available as turning blanks at some specialized wood supply houses. Do a search on Google! Generally these are seasoned (dried) before they are sold. Some hardwoods will wreck the edges of steel cutting tools.
I've been a woodworker for 35 years, and have made most of the furniture in my house, but I wouldn't attempt what you propose, but good luck to you!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-02-26 05:21
Many plastics, too, will tear up steel cutting tools. I like the brazed tip cutting bits, carbide(?) or something like that, made for cutting super hard stuff. I like them for soft metals too because you get a much smoother cut than with HSS bits. Whatever you decide to try, I imagine you'll need to do a few practice runs on some scrap.
Have you dropped in to visit some of your local techs? Most shops have a few "accident victims" in their scrap bins for scavenging parts. In your situation you could experiment on turning the body material too. They might be willing to donate parts to your project when you explain why you want scrap parts.
Whatever and however it 'turns out', I wish you all the best in your endeavor.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-02-26 05:56
I remember seeing an amateur woodwind 'How to do it book' in a college library some 30 years ago. It was a serious book for woodworker musicians to make flutes, recorders, and clarinets similar to the old instruments in museums. I have no doubt that a search on the internet, or even here on the board will turn up this book and probably lots more like it. Making a clarinet is a great idea. I agree that making a modern 17 key clarinet is not the most rewarding place to start, but making a playable clarinet is possible, and it would teach a hundred lessons in what is possible and practical for the more advanced projects.
WT
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-02-26 13:23
Shaun,
To paraphrase a line from another post, "it had to start somewhere" and the early clarinet makers 300 years ago probably had fewer resources than you seem to have to get you started (electricity, for example).
I was wondering if teak might be suitable. It is commonly used in boat decks and outdoor furniture, so that it can obviously stand the environmental stresses, and it's readily available. I have had my solid teak furniture for over 20 years and it has never cracked. The "downside" might be that (I have read) teak has a high silicon content, which apparently dulls the cutting tools.
Perhaps you would post some pictures as your project progresses?
Regards,
Hans
Post Edited (2004-02-26 13:23)
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2004-02-26 15:23
For fun and $5 you too can make a clarinet
http://geocities.com/tpe123/folkurban/clarinet/index.html
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Author: Brad
Date: 2004-02-26 16:06
I applaud your enthusiasm, and I think you should go for it.
I do like the idea of making a historical instrument. I have often thought that it would be cool to play on a replica of a clarinet that Mozart, Beethoven, or Brahms had in mind when they wrote for it. Making a replica of a historical instrument might be a great stepping stone for you on your way to duplicating a modern instrument.
Good Luck!
Brad Cohen
Clarinetist
la_brad@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2004-02-26 16:07)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-02-26 16:31
Yup, I suspect most of us have dreamed of making/working-on parts or even an entire clarinet. I recognise, for me, its like my trying to fly farther out from Mars! I first read Arthur Benade's discussion/suggestions and of his works in Scientific American, I believe June 1960 issue [haven't found my copy yet], and in the old [1960] "Science Study Series" P-B, pic and bio on back!!, and quickly forgot about any clarinet/oboe or parts experimental manufacturing! His introduction in Chap X [Homemade Wind Instruments] of [ the newer and corrected] "Horns -----" is well worth reading/rereading, what humor!! Also, it is filled with references to consider, before saying, "D--- the torpedos, full speed ahead". There are, of course, many patents in US Class 84/Subclass 382 [clarinet specifically] and /Sub [the]380's [woodwinds], but as I recall, very few have dimensions which might help a "garage-type" experimenter, and I believe any patent infringement suits are few and far between. Think about it, best wishes, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-02-26 16:42
Don't let the 'experts' tell you that you can't...
Get hold of the actual makers, and have them tell you how you can...
Rossi
Stephen Fox
Peter Eaton
All smaller makers that will encourage your efforts.
I would start with hard rod rubber, if you can find it.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-02-26 16:49
SB makes a good suggestion --- hard rubber is a terrific material to work with from the standpoint of machining/filing/granding/sanding/drilling operations, with the exception of the smelly and messy yellow-brown dust that's generated. Other than that, it's a far easier material to make clarinets from than any of the suitable hardwoods --- if I were doing what you propose it would probably be my material of choice.
p.s. I recently completed a homemade low-C extension for my bass clarinet, using (for the basic tube) the lower section of a 'junker' hard-rubber bass clarinet. It was a good choice in my case.
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Author: shaunm
Date: 2004-02-26 17:07
I've seen all of the clarinet sites (including the pvc noise maker) listed in your posts as well as others. I've spent hours researching this matter. Thanks to the people who have offered support instead of doubts. I don't understand why people are trying to discourage me. The worst case scenario is that it won't turn out. The most I'm out is the price of the wood blank and even in failure, I would learn much. Also, I'm not worried about it sounding like a $4,000 clarinet. If it does, great, but my goal is to make a beautiful clarinet that's playable. And the experts didn't become experts without practice.
Also, I took my Yamaha clarinet in to a tech. last night and he explained that it is in perfect condition and that it plays lower because it is a Bb, so I'll probably just use my clarinet as the model for my project. Like I said, I'm going to start small with a barrel or a bell. Therefore, I'll probably make several barrels and bells and fine tune my methods before attempting the difficult parts. After a few barrels are cranked out, I might try segmented turning to make designs like in this gallery:
http://www.woodturnersresource.com/Gallery/segmented/bobpritchard2
Those designs are achieved by gluing different pieces of wood together in creative ways before turning. I might even try using materials used in pen blanks similar to the ones here:
http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Pen_Blank_Images_3.htm
See a customer gallery here:
http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Customer_Gallery.htm
I wouldn't make the entire barrel from this material, but it would make some great stripes or patterns around the barrel.
I haven't seen segmented barrels anywhere and the solid homemade barrels are selling for about $50. You just might see my barrels selling on ebay or elsewhere in the near future. Hans, I'll be happy to post my finished pieces on here.
Gordon,
http://www.smithy.com/g1324.htm
This is the metal lathe/milling machine that my father has along with other metalworking tools. There is a local woodworking store that sells reamers and if they don't have one that I can use, I'll make one on the Smithy. The specialized tools that you see in the chadash site were most likely made on a machine that's very similar to the one I'll use. In fact, I wouldn't doubt they used a Smithy. I'll use the milling machine to drill the precise holes and grooves for the key posts, too. If my taps won't work, a tech would have some that would. I'm not an expert at woodworking, but I am proficient and I have several local sources of expertise that I can consult for help.
Also, I knew my clarinet was playing low, but I didn't understand that it is supposed to. That didn't make any sense at first, but the tech explained why and that won't affect my ability to tune a clarinet with a tuner.
Post Edited (2004-02-26 17:35)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-02-26 20:29
'Get hold of the actual makers, and have them tell you how you can...
Rossi
Stephen Fox
Peter Eaton"
Didn't Peter Eaton buy the manufacturing jigs from B&H?
"Don't let the 'experts' tell you that you can't..."
I don't recall an expert saying this. By all means go for it. Every new activity has intrinsic value from its learning curve.
Just acquaint yourself with what is actually involved. The issue I brought up earlier about transferring mechanism from another instrument is a biggie, and there are many more biggies. It is not just a wood-turning exercise. If you are already balking - that's how It seemed to me - at making tone hole inserts, then you are in for a huge amount of bigger balking still to come, with respect to the key-work!
I agree about using hard rubber.
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 2004-02-27 06:25
Well,
I remember I've seen another book in the public library of Nuremberg, title approx. "Makeing Woodwind Instruments for School Orchestras".
It included drawings for simple (!) instruments (flute, clarinet, bassoon) - based on "historic" key setups.
The clarinet in this book e.g. had only two or three keys (the historic flat hole design), and used a modern clarinet mouthpiece.
You should not have many problems with tuning your instrument using a electronics available today, but intonation (ballancing over the whole range) to get a good instrument should take very much experience (and trials).
Arnold, the basset hornist
P.S.: Schould I try to desing a new basset horn in 3D CAD?
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Author: Maarten
Date: 2004-02-27 12:59
Hi Shaunm,
it's not impossible to make your own instruments. I know someone who made her own bassoon and trombone, although she did this in a course (1 evening per week) and it took her years to complete these instruments, which were about the simplest versions. They didn't sound that bad though and were quite well in tune. The course was given on a technical university in the Netherlands.
I'd suggest to look for a model or description of a chalumeau, those are technically much simpler (no keys, no undercut toneholes, probably a simpler bore, anything else??). Maybe you can find a similar course or a person with knowledge to guide you in your neighbourhood too.
Have fun and good luck,
Maarten
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-02-28 03:20
If you can find copies of the Woodwind Quarterly in your library, there were some relevant articles in it that would be of interest to you.
One should use adequate ventillation when turning exotic woods to minimize contact of the dust with your body. Mr. Paul Laubin, the oboe maker, went into cardiac arrest once when turning an oboe body from some exotic wood, perhaps cocobolo or Honduras rosewood.
Good luck!
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-02-29 19:37
Here is an interesting site by someone who has made PVC pipe flutes and "clarinets" of various sizes.
http://www.geocities.com/musicalalchemy/main.html
This gentleman also has links to many informative pages on the subject of instrument making and good information on tuning home made instruments.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-03-01 00:55
shaunm, my contemplation of this exercise leads me to a conclusion that you might consider, rather than using your Yamaha as a model:
First, acquire an older Clarinet of impeccable origin. My suggestion would be a Couesnon Monopole. This is an excellent Clarinet when in good condition, and one of those in dire need of overhaul occasionally can be found for little money. You may even be able to find a friendly repair tech who might have one of these (or something in the same ballpark -- maybe an old Leblanc Symphonie, for example) lounging in a box of cadavers. Don't worry about any cracks, but do try to be sure the mechanicals are in good condition.
Disassemble that thing completely, and plan to reuse the hardware. Or if you wish, use the old stuff as a standard and make your own keys. Use the wood as a standard also. Once upon a time, it was a superb Clarinet. Make yours like it, except in those areas where you wish your own personality to get into the picture, and you'll likely do okay.
My personal preference is unplated nickel silver hardware. It polishes up beautifully, can look quite good for a long time when proper care is given, and never will need replating. YMMV.
Regards,
John
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Author: shaunm
Date: 2004-03-01 15:04
I spent most of my Saturday doing research and I found several great resources that I can use for making a clarinet. Stephen Fox's website has some good stuff. Here's some of the links I put together if anyone is interested:
Clarinet Links
http://www.anne-bell.woodwind.org/ABCClar.htm
Clarinet Makers
http://www.grahams-music.com/links/clarinet.htm
Clarinet Accoustics
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/clarinetacoustics.html
http://www.niu.edu/user/u40gmb1/Cl_Acoustics.htm
http://www.zainea.com/wood.htm
Wood Grain Info
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/Grenadilla.htm
I also went to the my university's music library and checked out "Clarinet Accoustics," by O Lee Gibson. It looks like it will be valuable.
While I wait for the right used clarinet and wood blank to come along, I'll try to learn as much as I can about how clarinets work. It looks like this project will take place over the summer, unless I get lucky. I don't want to spend a lot of money on the clarinet, because I'd like to rip it into halves and look at the underside of the tone holes. I'll still try to make a few barrels for my Yamaha just for fun and I'll post them on here when they're finished.
Shaun
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Author: shaunm
Date: 2004-03-01 15:16
Here's something I thought I'd share and see what some of you thought about it.
I went into a local music store and tried to buy two metal rings that would fit my Yahama's barrel. The guy was a joke. He brought out a box of nasty tarnished rings and said he would sell them for $5 each. Also, he could have just held rings up to the ends of the barrel to see if they would fit, but he tried to pull mine off to compare them. I didn't really want him to pull them off, because I wasn't sure if they would be loose afterward. He couldn't pull them off by hand, so he pulled a PENNY out of his pocket and tried to push the ring off with it! I asked him what the hell he thought he was doing and pulled the barrel out of his hands. I had studied the barrel before I took it in because I'm planning on making one and it was spotless. He put a visible scratch in it just above the ring and he tried to deny it. He offered to buff it out at least, but I didn't want him touching my clarinet anymore.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-03-01 18:09
Well, at least you know what kind of tech to avoid in the future. That's why I said, "visit" some local techs. And, I apologize for not adding, "..before you let them touch anything!"
You can tell a lot just by a few minutes of general conversation. Most techs are sensible, down to earth, ordinary folks. A few, unfortunately, are like the one you came across (what a jerk!). I hope your bad experience doesn't prevent you from further pursuit of Reasonable contacts.
- ron b -
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-03-01 20:19
I have an interesting CAD file print-out at home of a bass Ranckett ... one day I'll learn wood turning and make it ... (or get someone better able to do this).
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Author: eskil
Date: 2005-12-18 17:44
I'm just curious. How is your clarinet coming on, shaunm? I haven't seen anything about it since 2004, so...
I admire people who dare try stuff that seem impossible (like Burt Munro, in that upcoming film about him - "The World's fastest Indian") - but after all, that's the only way to find out if it indeed is impossible. And it can't be that impossibly difficult to make a clarinet, they built them in the 18th century. Surely they didn't have ball bearings and stuff like that back then, so their machining resources must have looked primitive in comparison to what shaunm has access to!
On a side note my local clarinet tech, Asa de Val, is a trained woodwind tech, and I know that she has made clarinets herself - it was part of her formal training to build one, for starters. She has a homepage that is partly in English, at
http://www.asadeval.nu/
where she describes where she got her training and what it was all about. It looks like a lot to learn, but not superhuman. More like the stuff any old-fashioned apprentice would have to learn in any craftsman's trade.
So, how is that clarinet coming on? I'm genuinely interested!
Regards, Eskil
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-18 18:08
> So, how is that clarinet coming on? I'm genuinely interested!
<raises hand too>
--
Ben
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Author: bawa
Date: 2005-12-19 09:55
second that..I have often wondered about this myself over the last year
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-19 14:05
I tried to email suanm but the address seems inactive. Perhaps he is no longer here.
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The Clarinet Pages
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