 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cujo
Date: 2004-02-16 01:03
I know that flutes that have an extra tonehole add a note but disrupt the harmonics. Making an instrument longer than usual to add a note effects the air/sound vibrations.
I was wondering if anyone knows how much does this apply to Bass clarinets.
There must be drastic differences in harmonics of course one is much larger and different material. Does anyone possibly know which key system has the most natural harmonics? Any links to some technical information is greatly appreciated. THANKS
I found this on my journey and just thought it was interesting. http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-02-16 10:48
Definitely true. A justification for the low C bass is that the notes that are notoriously difficult of the low Eb bass, such as those immediately above the break, are easier. I have worked on, and consequently played, a few low E, as opposed to Eb basses, and they dont have the same problems over the break. Neither do the low C basses. An issue might be the bore size vs length. I have never measured any, but low C's, brand for brand, probably have the same bore size as the low Eb, brand for brand, but longer tubing length. The basset horn phenomena; ie. the reason why the tone of the basset horn differs from the clarinet. Similar bore sizes but extended tubing, plus some sort of bend, and lower pitch on the basset horn vs the clarinet. The only link I can think of on clarinet accoustics is through the Joe Wolf at the University of New South Wales <www.unsw.edu.au> and search under musical accoustics. This website has been posted on this board before. Knowing how busy Joe is, great cor anglais player, I doubt whether he has got to bass clarinets or basset horns yet.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-02-16 15:04
Interesting question, this could be an intriguing thread. I hope our B C experts [as Alexi often says, I {know that I} am NO pro] will respond with at least thots/opinions, if not facts. IMHO, since the Low C basses are by far the most expensive, and I have never seen one which Does NOT have a double register keying [DRK] system, I'm inclined to believe that DRK is equally [if not more] necessary on them to achieve responsive/clean low-clarion notes, than on the low Eb basses. Opinions & facts, please, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2004-02-16 20:30
I own a Selmer low C bass (model 37) and until recently a Selmer Low Eb bass (model 35). These are supposedly the same instrument except for the 37's low C extension. Both instruments play well over the break with the 37 maybe having a slight advantage. More noticeable is the difference in response in the the mid-clarion register, particularly E, F, and F#. The 37 has a much better response than the 35. I always figured that it was just a matter of the individual horn, but maybe--all other things being equal--low C basses are intrinsically more responsive in the mid-clarion than low Eb basses. It would be interesting to hear from other players regarding this subject who have experience on both types of bass.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2004-02-18 00:51
Don, From what I think is possibly true that double register key just makes it harder to play but then can also be used to come up with various alternates.
While playing some notes the top register key should be open. And others the bottom, of course both should never be open at same time.
That key configuration with one register key only lets one or the other open while connected to the A.
The pro models with 2 keys should be played like clarinets with 1 key but you make the choice on which will open, not some key mechanism. From what I am guessing they both do the same thing but one has more choices(harder to play).
Its kinda like auto and manual cars. One is easy to drive. And one has much more choice. There are many pro/race drivers that only use manual. Much like the those register keys.
I was wondering how many pro players use double register keys.
I hope someone comes up with a better idea on how these keys work.
Wasnt this thread about harmonics?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-02-18 14:30
I sort of have experience with both low-Eb and low-C basses, in that I recently 'created' and installed a homemade low-C extension to my previously-low-Eb Kohlert/Winnenden bass clarinet (using the lower part of a second Kohlert and various bass clarinet and saxophone keys, rods, posts, etc.). It's ugly but quite functional, and the effects on the lower clarion register are minimal, other than a slight improvement in the pitch (formerly tending sharp) on the middle B and C. Response-wise, little difference. There is also some improvement in the tone of the low Eb (formerly a bell note, now of course a 'body note').
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-02-18 15:15
Velly interesting, Dave, are you "going-into" that business, and may need to file a patent application?? {See Loney, US 2,649,829 [expired]} Re: the lowest notes, I have only seen a few low D's, I've wished I could play [easily, no tubes!]. Interested in making me one for my Selmer 30's [low Eb] model? I hope your, and other's discussions may help cujo with his "harmonics" question and his reference [I believe] to two individual register keys, not our usual "semi-automatic" [one-touch] structure, for single or double register keying. I could/did offer little help! Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-19 14:02
Dave -
So -- why not make a super-extension, perhaps paperclip style, extending the range down to G, making a bass/contra-alto -- or even down to BBb, making a bass/contrabass? This would probably require a second loop, but who wouldn't be impressed by a paper-paperclip? Of course, it would be even more impressive to make it a 15' straight model. I'd be glad to stand on the roof to play it, and it would probably need a second set of hands for the extra keys.
Could you finish one for me by April 1 ;-)
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-02-19 14:35
Ken,
No problem ---- send me a blank check and your credit card and I'll guarantee to have it done by April Fool's Day.................
All seriousness aside, I'd guess that if I extend the instrument much further the sound will get very resistant and stuffy --- the bore of the entire instrument should be increased commensurately with a reduction in pitch --- I can see the beginnings of that stuffiness already on the low C. Besides, my contra would get jealous and nasty if the bass could play as low.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-02-19 14:47
WOW, Ken, thats sure thinking BIG. Count me in, Dave, for a low-low bass clarinet. I haven't thot much [lower] than contraalto! I have seen some concert band pieces for bass and contrabass on the same pages, and have wondered what the composer/arranger was trying to achieve by [likely] doubling the BBb bass tuba parts !!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-19 15:04
David -
My payment will be on the way just as soon as my Nigerian contact comes through with my share of the big bucks.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-02-19 15:36
Ken--
Do you have three hands and fifteen fingers? The biggest drawback to an extension such as you propose is that it will require a number of additional keys. You might want to clue Dave in as to how to arrange the keys.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2006-12-07 21:20
Cujo, I think you got your first question partially answered, yes? There may be a small improvement in certain clarion notes on the low C bass. But just for clarity, I'll point out the obvious, that length of tube past the open tone holes has a minor effect on the fundamental and harmonics compared to the nature of the closed part of the tube. Your interesting question concerns how minor is the 'minor'.
And then you mention double register keys. If you haven't read much about this term before, it can be confusing. Search on this site and you'll get lots of info. Basically though, 'DRK's' refer to a clarinet having two register vents (not keys) that are opened automatically in different parts of the clarion. It's old bass clarinets from before about 1930 that had the same vents, but no automatic mechanism. These had two register 'keys', but that is not what the modern discussion is referring to. (Interestingly, Cujo, Leblanc Contra basses have two register vents and a separate throat A vent, all operated by the single automatic register key.)
Wayne Thompson
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