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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-17 17:57
This is somewhat to be expected. Austria is a very conservative country and this change is not going to happen overnight..
.there was a recent problem with the Munich phil not accepting an American lady trombonist who won a blindfold audition..
.it was pretty nasty...
in recent history in North America women were frowned upon as well...I guess in some ways we are progressive, however, very few women run corporations in North America as well...
David Dow
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-02-17 18:33
The Vienna Philharmonic is making a little progress by having obviously non-European Seiji Ozawa conduct, especially for its New Year's concerts. Which leads me to a question for whomever wants to answer it -- If the Vienna Philharmonic offered you a conducting position, would you readily accept (assuming you were in the market for such a job) or would you make it conditional on their changing their policies toward female or other less-represented musicians?
I can't say for a fact that there still isn't discrimination in corporate America but, even if all discrimination were suddenly eliminated, it would take time for those being descriminated against to work their way up the corporate ladder before numbers would become anything near equal. In an orchestra or in executive positions, the rate of change will be affected by both the rate of attrition of those currently holding positions and the relative proportions of those trying to fill those spots.
That being said, although a little progress is laudable on the part of the Vienna Philharmonic, until they hire musicians based strictly on their talents and ability to play well with the orchestra, I'm not ready to give them a standing ovation.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-02-17 19:31
Who would have thought a darling of the Third Reich would accept the baton of Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Daniel Barenboim? Things change -- with time. That said, it is a private men's club - a quaint notion in a modern world, but it is right out there in the open for all to see. No harm comes of their position on membership. They take no action that would preclude women from a music education in Austria, nor do they do anything that would preclude women from pursuing careers in music. The VP is missing out on a terrific pool of talent, but that is their choice to make as an organization.
Would I take the conducting post? Heck yeah. If I were of a mind, it sure would be easier to affect change from within the organization than to sit on my hands in protest. In the meantime, we should concern ourselves with institutions that profess to be equal opportunity but are not.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-17 20:14
There are other orchestras in Vienna you know, all of whom employ women (the Folk Opera Orchestra, Vienna Symphony). Vienna is making a token effort to get women on board, it would appear.
The Australian Chamber Orchestra (hailed as one of the world's finest ensembles) is now well over 75% women. Perhaps if the Vienna Phil lifted its ratio it might improve its standards... the ACO's proof of that pudding. The other thing about the Vienna Phil that annoys me is that they seem to be stuck in a classical/romantic timewarp ... of course they're going to play that repertroire well ... they very rarely venture beyond Stravinsky in the 20th century. I would expect them to play all the Brahms, Beethoven and Schubert symphonies from memory, they've played them so often.
Fortunately in Australia our 7 state orchestras are pretty much 50/50 ... and two of them are considered world standard (Sydney and Melbourne). Any orchestra who is still basically misogynistic will invariably have an audience of fat, overpaid, right-wing classical/romantically inclined audiences at their beck and call (tongue slightly in cheek). Why would the Vienna Phil want to change that?
Ironically, Simone Young, an Australian conductor has been invited to conduct a Ring Cycle at the Staatsoper in Vienna (with the VPO in the pit) ... ironic really, Australian and female, go figure!
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-02-17 20:17)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-02-17 20:21
"The VP is missing out on a terrific pool of talent, but that is their choice to make as an organization"
It's not that simple. If they were a privately funded organisation, then it might be OK to accept it as just their choice. But the Austrian government also subsidise them! Can you imagibe the American government subsidising an all-male orchestra?!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-18 00:28
I seem to remember a story retold to me by a former player in the Concertgebouw about how surprised they were when some came to America to live in the late 40s. When they got on the public bus they were told to sit at the front(by the driver) because the back was for Negroes....
David Dow
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-02-18 11:08
"I can't imagine them subsidising any orchestra"
You mean American orchestras don't get any money from the state? Where does the money come from?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-02-18 12:59
Someone who knows wrote:
>
> > You mean American orchestras don't get any money from the
> > state? Where does the money come from?
>
> Virtually all raised privately from individuals and
> corporations.
Most if not all major orchestras in the US get some funding from their respetive state; however, it is always one of the first things to get cut back during budget shortfalls. For instance, the Detroit SO used to get 1.5 Mil/yr from the state. It was recently cut in half to 750K. It's not much (probably just enough to keep Jarvi happy last year) out of the 28 Mil/yr operating budget.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-02-18 20:17
"If the Vienna Philharmonic offered you a conducting position, would you readily accept (assuming you were in the market for such a job) or would you make it conditional on their changing their policies toward female or other less-represented musicians?"
Um, they wouldn't ask me. If they're just getting female musicians it will take another 50 years or so to get to female conductors. I've seen some excellent conductors who happen to be women (Joann Falletta with the Buffalo Phil and Marin Alsop guest conducting Philly) but they're very, very few.
Interesting article:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/entertainment/3574745.htm
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-18 20:33
Micaela wrote:
"If they're just getting female musicians it will take another 50 years or so to get to female conductors"
Read my posting ... they DO work with female conductors, one most noticeably and she happens to be an Australian ... she's also music director and general director of Hamburg Opera (Germany) as of next year and has worked with such institutions as Covent Garden, the Met, Bayreuth (assistant to Barenboim), et cetera and, was Opera Australia's Music Director until she got knifed in the back by their Board for being grandiose (fiscally). Hamburg's gain is our loss, tragically.
diz | sydney
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-18 22:16
No matter the sex, blindfolds auditions should be done and the winning applicant should receive the chair audited for. It is crazy....however, inequalities exist and can only be eliminated through a proper audition process
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-18 23:35
David ... very true, unless your orchestra is conservative and demonstrably racist organisation like the Vienna Philharmonic. Unfortunately its employment of women in its ranks is tokenism at best.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-02-19 03:28
Hmm, interesting. Sorry...I should read more thoroughly. I had heard most of the information at the beginning and assumed that it was all the same old stuff. Very nice progress!
Micaela
(recently returned from her Feminist Majority Swarthmore Chapter meeting)
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-02-20 01:57
And now, a little light relief from Sir Thomas Beecham ....
"I do not approve of women in an orchestra. If they look good they put the players off. If they don't, they put me off".
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-23 17:11
I agree with the above post, this type of treatment is unfair and has to stop.
]
I know that many felt Sabine Meyer was a bit much, but she had a tough go of it in Berlin and was treated poorly. That is a shame..she is brilliant!
However, once again the Germanic countries are still very conservative.
I was not happy the way the Munich Phil treated that excellent female trombonist....they are totally a bunch of backward @$##$%$ so and so's.
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-23 20:10
David Dow ... a thought to ponder: WWII caused a big swing in personnel in Australian orchestras (i.e. more women---for obvious reasons---the menfolk being stolen for war), I'm sure this was probably the case in other countries that participated in this battle, had we not had this ghastly war ... would our orchestras still be so balanced?
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