 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sir Green Knight
Date: 1999-12-01 19:57
hmm... well... it there any trick to tounging really fast? i just picked up a copy of von Webers concerto in f minor... and the tondo have some interesting tounged runs.. and i can't seem to keep my fingers and toung in sink with each other, any tips?
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-12-01 20:58
Sir Green Knight,
Keeping your fingers and tongue in sync is a different problem than simply tonguing fast. I'll address each problem briefly here.
1) finger/tounge sync - practice stacatto passages slowly. For example, start with scales, tounged stacatto. Put lots of space between the notes and move your fingers exactly between each note. Think of tounging on the downbeat and moving the fingers on the upbeat. Obviously, the tone should be stopped before the fingers move. Move your fingers very methodically, nearly "snapping" them into position (don't do this while playing legato, though - different technique). Then build speed, a little bit at a time. Finger/toungue sycronization is more a matter of the fingers than the tongue.
2) fast tonguing - To develop pure tonguing speed, practice repeated notes, stacatto. For example, playing scales, you might play each tone as 8 repeated 16th notes before moving the next note. Relax - try not to "force" the tongue to the reed. The more you relax and the less motion your tongue makes, the faster you will be able to tongue. Relaxation is the key, here. It's very easy to get your tongue "tied" with repeated use - it just takes practice (and lots of it). There is an excellent etude book by Kell that's full of stacatto exercises.
Be patient and diligent with your practice. Neither of these things is going to happen overnight. Instead, be pleased with slow but steady progress.
I'm sure that others will post with remarks about double tonguing, side-to-side motion (vs. back-and-forth), and declarations of how fast is "fast". This subject has been around before (check the archives). My personal belief is that for the standard clarinet literature (especially Weber, Mozart, and the French Concours music), normal single tonguing is adequate. There is no silver bullet besides steady progress through practice.
As far as the Weber concertos are concerned, there seems to be some debate about the proper articulation anyway. You can probably get away with the "slur 2, tongue 2" articulation any place you see a run of successive 16th notes.
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Katherine Pincock
Date: 1999-12-01 22:34
Just an addition to this, since Kevin's comments are good:
Most editions of the Weber concertos don't have many slurs marked in, because at the time Weber wrote it, it was expected that the performer would interpret the runs in a style that they preferred. It's completely acceptable to add slurs to these passages. Usually, people use combinations like 2 slurred, 2 tongued, or 3 slurred, 1 tongued. In any case, feel free to mark in whatever pattern you prefer; if you're going to perform it for a competition, however, you might want to mark your slurs into a copy of the score that you give the adjudicator, so he/she knows you had planned it. Hope this helps!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-12-02 00:20
<br>Sir Green Knight wrote:
<br>-------------------------------
<br>hmm... well... it there any trick to tounging really fast? i just picked up a copy of von Webers concerto in f minor... and the tondo have some interesting tounged runs.. and i can't seem to keep my fingers and toung in sink with each other, any tips?
<br>
<br>
<br>Dear Green -
<br>
<br>A good high school player should be able to tongue 16ths at 120 more or less indefinitely. Most college players can do it at 132, and pros at 144.
<br>
<br>If you can't hit 120, you're doing something wrong. The most likely wrong thing is moving your jaw or your throat, or both, as you tongue. Work in front of a mirror and you should see good results quickly once you get rid of the extra stuff.
<br>
<br>Also, be sure you aren't making a puff of air with your abdomen for each note. Keep the breath steady.
<br>
<br>Are you anchor tonguing? That is, do you tuck the tip of your tongue down behind your lower teeth and hit the reed with the area farther back on your tongue. If so, switching to the "tip to tip" method will make a big difference.
<br>
<br>Finally, think of tonguing as stopping the sound rather than starting it. Play a note, and then barely flick the tip of the reed with the tip of your tongue. That's all the effort tonguing should take.
<br>
<br>I put two long posts on tonguing on Sneezy a while back. For more than you ever wanted to know, see
<br><A HREF=/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?id=6899>
<br>http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?id=6899<A>
<br>and
<br><A HREF=/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?id=5284>http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?id=5284<A>
<br>
<br>Best regards.
<br>
<br>Ken Shaw
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-12-02 00:29
Mark -
What did I do wrong? The link syntax worked before:
[greater]A HREF=http:link-no-www[less]full-link[greater]A[less]
where "greater" is the < sign and "less" is >.
Now it just gives a 404 error.
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Author: Tim2
Date: 1999-12-02 00:56
I think of my tongue as coming _off_ the reed, starting each tone, whether it's a fast or slow passage. This in conflict with what Ken has stated in the previous post. It is the sound that needs to be complete from the beginning to the end of each articulation.
Maybe it _can_ go both ways. The start of the next note ends the previous, just as the ending of a note starts the next. I feel more secure concentrating on the start of each note, knowing that each one will speak as I want it to and the sound will begin as I want it to be.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-02 01:58
Ken Shaw wrote:
-------------------------------
What did I do wrong? The link syntax worked before:
[greater]A HREF=http:link-no-www[less]full-link[greater]A[less]
--------
Either put in the full link (that always works) or strip the whole http://www.sneezy.org (not just the www) out since it's a local reference. The second method is slightly faster (since it doesn't have to go out and do a name lookup again).
I fixed up your previous post.
Cheers,
mark C.
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Author: William Fuller
Date: 1999-12-02 02:40
Check out Robert Springs CD "Dragons Tongue." I listened to him and gave up on trying to single tongue fast 16th note runs . I have tried all my life to speed up my tongue but could never top 16th notes at 116 mm....so,I learned to double-tongue (ta-ka-ta-ka, etc) and now I can sail right through all of those runs you are referring to. Triple technique (ta-ta-ka) is also advised for nightmares like the Fetes. Good luck.
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Author: Jim
Date: 1999-12-02 14:04
A good high school player should be able to tongue 16ths at 120 more or less indefinitely. Most college players can do it at 132, and pros at 144.
If you can't hit 120, you're doing something wrong.
---------
Are these numbers for real? I find that just speaking
tah-tah I can get to about 80. Maybe 90 if I really race.
There seems little hope that I could actually play faster
than that. Do I just have an abnormally slow tongue? If
so, perhaps I should start to learn double tonguing
immediately.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-02 15:37
Jim wrote:
-------------------------------
Are these numbers for real? I find that just speaking
tah-tah I can get to about 80. Maybe 90 if I really race.
There seems little hope that I could actually play faster
than that.
----
With concentrated practice you can get faster than that (the numbers are for real) - and there's a good number of people that can single tongue even faster. I know Bob Spring can exceed 200 single tonguing, and I think I remember Dave Blumberg saying he can get faster than that.
Of course, I've heard people mutter something about a pact with the devil at Bob Spring concerts :^)
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-12-02 15:53
Jim wrote:
-------------------------------
Are these numbers for real? I find that just speaking
tah-tah I can get to about 80. Maybe 90 if I really race.
There seems little hope that I could actually play faster
than that. Do I just have an abnormally slow tongue? If
so, perhaps I should start to learn double tonguing
immediately.
-------------------------------
There are probably several things to check first. For example, when most of us speak "tah-tah" we move our jaw. This costs you a huge amount in speed and I would bet that is what you are doing. The jaw, etc should all stay absolutely still. Only the tongue should move and preferably only the tip or as little of the tongue as you can possibly manage. The less you move the faster you can go. Another thing to check is to make sure that you are tonguing *lightly*. The harder you tongue, the slower you will be. Yet another problem is that people worry about tonguing and tense up. The tenser you become, the slower you will tongue. Athletes quickly learn that max muscle speed is generated from the relaxed muscle state. So mental relaxation exercises are also a great help.
So what do we need for "lightning" speed?
1. Absolutely *NO* jaw motion.
2. Minimal tongue motion
3. Use as little of the tongue as possible.
4. Light not hard tonguing
5. Relaxed mind and body.
Danial Bonade's Clarinet Compendium has some wonderful explanations and drills for developing correct tonguing technique. Once you master these drills and then gradually increase the speed, you will be amazed at the speeds you can achieve.
I've tried the double tonguing and it is slower for me. It takes too much tongue motion.
Personally I would like to work up the stamina to do long sequences of sixteenths at a quarter equal 120. I can do it for a measure or two before I "die" but I don't have the time to put in the practice. I've no ambition to go any faster in tonguing as to me it sounds unmusical (even on professional recordings). Of course slurred is a different matter. It maintains a musical sound at even brisker tempi.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-12-02 21:01
Dee is right on target. I wish I could get ahold of Bonade's Compendium.
Adding to her input, I've heard that it helps to minimize tongue contact area, thus increasing speed, by exhaling across the tongue and extremely lightly tounging to "flutter" the air column rather than stop it cold. I can do it a little without the horn and it seems to work better than forcing movement of any kind. Is this concept on the right track?
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-12-03 00:57
You all seem not know the real fastness.
If you play Moto papetuoso by Paganini by clarinet, then I believe you know. I do not.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-03 02:30
Fetes is usually done with s single tongue, even fast, it is not that rapid, and is more of a burst tongue.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-03 02:33
Side to side at 210+, no problem.
HIROSHI wrote:
-------------------------------
You all seem not know the real fastness.
If you play Moto papetuoso by Paganini by clarinet, then I believe you know. I do not.
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Author: William
Date: 1999-12-03 16:08
Bruce Yeh told me that for the Nielson recording, he tongued "over the tip" (up and down) to execute those rapid notes. I have tried that for upper register stuff, but still find more success with the ta-ka method for most other passages. Kal Oppermann uses the ta-ta-ka method for Fetes (some conductors like fast tempos). The Bonade method is useful for learning hand and tongue coordination and for producing a clear staccato, but it will not speed up the tongue that nature has given some of us. For those of us with "sluggish equipment" from God, we need to "double and triple up."
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Author: STuart
Date: 1999-12-03 16:32
All of these sound correct, but i think the significance of the air column has been severely under-emphasized. Do you have a private teacher? They should be all about the air support, much much much more comes from there than from your mind or your toungue or whatever. You should really have a coach on this most crucial of topics, someone to hear and also watch you. It is very easy to misdistribute your mental awarness into friutless area that your "auto pilot mind" can deal with just fine, even better, in fact, than your conscious attention. Toungueing is a neat way of exploring your thought/bevior patterns. It really helped my air support, and naturally vice versa. Please, Sir Green Knight, tell us what you find!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-12-03 17:25
paul wrote:
-------------------------------
. . . I wish I could get ahold of Bonade's Compendium. . . .
Paul -
A quick Alta Vista search on Bonade and compendium found the book for around $10 at:
<A HREF=http:www.dornpub.com/ken/books.html>http://www.dornpub.com/ken/books.html<A>
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-12-03 17:30
AARGH! What did I do wrong this time, Mark?
Also, the Bonade Clarinetist's Compendium is available from Luyben Music for $3.00. I won't try for a link this time:
http://www.luybenmusic.com/music/clarinet/cl_studies/studies.html
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-03 23:00
Ken, a reference outside of the www.sneezy.com realm needs the http:// in the ANCHOR tag, HREF attribute. A missing http:// will cause the current domain to be preprended to the HREF attribute.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-12-04 13:49
Mark -
As always, a quick and elegant answer. Many thanks. Internet grammar is even finickier than adjusting reeds. On the other hand, even if Bob Spring can single toungue 16ths at 300, he can't come within shouting distance of your computer virtuosity.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Karel Vahala
Date: 1999-12-05 10:11
I got Bonade's Compendium from Luyben Music accessible through this Bulletin Board, for $3.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-08 02:24
I would like to hear someone double tongue 16ths at any speed past 230/quarter note. I think that it would basically sound the same at 225 as 240 , 250, 280 (in other words, it can't be done). I heard a player state that he can double tongue 16th's at 280/quarter note - I'd have to hear it first.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-12-08 02:42
Dave Blumberg wrote:
-------------------------------
I would like to hear someone double tongue 16ths at any speed past 230/quarter note. I think that it would basically sound the same at 225 as 240 , 250, 280 (in other words, it can't be done). I heard a player state that he can double tongue 16th's at 280/quarter note - I'd have to hear it first.
-------------------------------
I'm not sure my ears would even distinguish the 16ths as individual notes at those tempi!
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Author: Jessica
Date: 1999-12-08 02:53
I went to a master class with Donald Sinta, and he could go 250. My max is about 220, and that's on a really good day. I mean, how many people can go "ka, ka, ka, ka" at much more than 100 anyway?
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