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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-10 22:16
Music Director's being paid millions annually ... whilst the rank and file are paid considerably less ... the Philly board needs to make a decision and it looks like they've taken some remediation measures.
America is the land of the philanthropist ... surely there's a "rich bitch" who can leave her vast assets to a "glamorous" institution, as the Philly surely is.
One begs to ask ... what does the orchestra get for it's Music Director bucks ... if they are not putting bums on seats then get another.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-02-10 22:25
Nero said it...."give em bread and circuses." ....and that is what the public is getting....read below:
Pittsburgh had to do the same as Philly.
Both of these cities had MAJOR expenditures recently on SPORTS arenas ..while the arts suffer.
The problem is in the (mis)orientation of values.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-02-11 06:44
diz, when you speak of philanthropists, let's not forget: marvelous venues for musical presentation have been built all over the US thanks to philanthropic contributions and corporate largess (it's good institutional advertising). Of course, names are thus permanently attached to the halls so built. Such as the "old" Dorothy Chandler Pavilion in Los Angeles, and the new Walt Disney auditorium. Who knows, maybe Mrs. Kroc's estate might have given a few hundred million to the "McDonalds Hamburger Ray Kroc Memorial Philadelphia Orchestra." Hey, don't laugh. It would be better than entirely losing the group to the woes of underfunding. Yes, really. Sure. Think about it. Things just might come to that someday.
But most of the multi-zillion-dollar sports arenas, as Alseg writes, are built either largely or completely with taxpayers' money, so those taxpayers (and othrs) who want to do so can spend lots of money attending big-time sporting events. Boyohboy. And some corporation can rent out the name of the arena for a pile of money.
Regards,
John
just think, dainty little demi-cheeseburgers and Coke during intermission
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-02-11 12:19
Alseg,
Although I am not a public finance expert, I have a lot of experience with airport revenue bonds as well as with school bonds and levys. I'm not sure I agree with the focus on your comment "Both of these cities had MAJOR expenditures recently on SPORTS arenas ..while the arts suffer. The problem is in the (mis)orientation of values.
For a large capital project, revenue bonds such as would be used for a school building as well as a stadium are probably the primary funding source. In the case of the Philadelphia Orchestra, the shortfall looks to be in operating revenues. Two different situations.
It would be very unusual (and possibly illegal) for bond issue monies to be used for salaries, etc. In most states, school district voters go to the polls to vote on bond issues to build schools (25 year payback) and to vote as well on operating levys (usually 10 years and they must be renewed).
In Omaha, a few years ago, there were two items on the ballot. One was to create the Convention Center Board - which is a political entity that can issue its on debt - and the other to approve the issuing of revenue bonds to build the Omaha Arena. IMHO the Philadelphia Orchestra is probably not a political entity that can issue its own debt to or pass an operating levy.
John, I doubt if general obligaton bonds (voted on in most states and backed by the full faith and credit of a city or country and paid back by tax money) would be used to build a stadium. There is a limit as to how much debit can be issued. But single purpose revenue bonds, paid for out of user fees, is another matter.
Just wanted to clarify things.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-02-11 14:00)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-11 13:24
Comes as nothing as a surprise with the way the world has become...
Music is becoming a passing fad in a culture obcessed with wrestling and war.
David Dow
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-02-11 15:02
Agreed that there is a difference between public bond funding for arenas/sport venues vs. support for operating revenues of orchestras. BUT....and herein is the problem....The public favors the one over the other. Music education and science education, together with ongoing support of artistic presentations should be higher on the agenda than it is....this is the result of a mindset, and that is the root of the problem. JMHO
And consider this: The new Pittsburgh salary contract is tied to the salary of big city orchs. such as Phila and NY.....now if the Phila salary drops..........hmmmm. Wonder if...the business mgrs. communicate. Just a thought.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-11 15:13
Hank -
Cities obviously need schools and airports, regardless of whether they show a profit. In the case of an airport, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show that a city without one would suffer a loss greater than the airport's construction and operating cost.
The argument against sports stadiums built and supported by public money is that they can't show the economic benefit from their presence, or the economic loss from their absence, that can be show for an airport. Particularly where the team demands a new stadium to replace an existing one, plus tax relief, the numbers often show a large net loss, or at least so I've been led to believe. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Arts organizations base requests for public money on attractive but rather attenuated claims that high culture attracts high-earning businesses and professionals who would otherwise settle elsewhere. The softness of that argument is, I suppose, the reason large "classical" music organizations are substantially funded by private contributions.
Civic pride in a professional sports team, or a professional orchestra, is worth something, and can justify an argument for support with tax money.
What are your thoughts on how the same analysis that supports airport bonds might be used to support music? How about the sports stadium analysis, with user fees? Or would that push up the ticket prices even higher?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-11 16:01
I suspect the problem's root is is a deeper cause then most suspect. During the 1930s the NY Phil and Philly orchestras got along famously because the culture of those times was far more classically oriented than today. This holds true for literature as well...when you consider how far the average IQ has dropped the difference in the times is mind boggling.
For example. Movies of 1939 Wuthering Heights, Rebecca
Wizard of Oz etc...these are incredible achievements of cinema and literature. The closes to this now is Lord of the Rings and this in the last ten years of Cinema...however, the music of the film is pretty poor...
The field of classical music is no longer put on a priority list by any major network because they know making a fuss over Janet Jackson's mammilial glands can sell...so it looks like a silly culture which is really backwards compared to 40 or 50 years ago in some respects....
As to music. The Mp3 and Downloads is really killing alot of recording sales as well...as to the Philadelphia orchestra taking a pay cut I can't see it.
In the same regard millions are spent everyday on war...oh well maybe we are all dreamers..
David Dow
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2004-02-11 16:07
In last Sunday's Evansville Courier & Press (Indiana) there was an article concerning the Evansville Phil. which was projecting a $60,000. deficit for this season following a cumulative deficit of $400,000 for the two previous years. The former director was fired last fall and William Griffin was hired to replace him. Also two staff members were let go.
In addition to these cuts, on one of the scheduled programs the orchestra will be cut by roughly half. The full article is at:
http://www.myinky.com/ecp/news/article/0,1626,ECP_734_2638446,00.html
HRL is I believe correct regarding the public bonding and levy issues. Comparing a sports stadium to an orchestra is apples to oranges where a stadium to an opera house would not be. That said though, I would know of no reason why a community could not form a municipal entity funded publicly if the political support was available to do so. After all communities fund parks, swimming pools, ice rinks, zoo’s and a variety of services, so why not an orchestra.
An orchestra is a very expensive venture viewed by too few people and that is the crux of the issue. I haven’t seen too many problems solved by complaining and pointing fingers. If a community spends a hundred million dollars on a new sports stadium while an orchestra languishes the statement shouldn’t be, “well we need to spend more on the arts.” Instead the question needs to be is “why are more people interested in watching football than listening to a symphony orchestra?” What is football doing that we can learn from? Why will people pay a scalper five times the face value for a hockey ticket when we can’t even fill an orchestra hall?
Right along with this is public outreach and development. Building endowments takes lots of time and effort. Building corporate support may take different tactics from building private support. But it all gets back to getting out of the concert hall and reaching the folks anyway you can. I must also say that when I read something like, “surely there's a "rich bitch" who can leave her vast assets to a "glamorous" institution, as the Philly surely is” I shudder. That is hardly an endearing appeal for money and shows a disdain that isn’t easily affordable these days.
I actually witnessed an organization lose a $600k gift because a person referred to the giver as a “tottering ‘ol’ biddy with more money than….” The comment got back to the tottering “ol” biddy who took her money where it was appreciated. On a more personal note, my grandfather, who was quite wealthy had put an organization in his will for 3 million dollars. Very few people knew about it so when some newly elected board members commented in a meeting about that “GD Jew”, it cost the organization exactly 3 million dollars. Nuff said.
One other point, then I’ll get off my well worn soap box. Whenever I get called in as a consultant to a business in trouble the first thing I ask is “what are you changing to fix the problem?” I usually hear about cost cutting which has nothing to do with fixing the core problem which is lack of sales. I look at orchestras and see the same mentality. Cut cost because support is declining but keep doing the same thing they have been doing forever. Well, what you’ve been doing forever taint getting the job done, so what are you going to do? When your back is against the wall and you are looking at your own extinction, it’s time for some radical thinking.
Best
Rick
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2004-02-11 17:07
Ditch the tuxes for Spandex and Speedos, and arrange for WWE-type "Smackdowns" between the string and brass sections.
Todd W.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-02-11 17:31
D Dow wrote:
> Comes as nothing as a surprise with the way the world has
> become...
Nothing is new ...
'Duas tantum res anxius optat/Panem et circenses' (The people
long eagerly for two things: bread and circuses), Juvenal, (55 AD - 127 AD) - Roman poet & satirist
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-02-11 18:19
ddow wrote
"a culture obsessed with wrestling and war"
hey, if i wrote that i'd get my arse kicked. "You go boy" (no, it doesn't sound quite right, what is the male equivilant of "you go girl"?)
actually suprised that it wasn't edited.
donald
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-02-11 19:01
Hi Everyone,
Ken, concerning "What are your thoughts on how the same analysis that supports airport bonds might be used to support music? How about the sports stadium analysis, with user fees? Or would that push up the ticket prices even higher?" I think the sports complex revenue bonds are paid for by the Sports Complex Authority (or whatever the political mechanism thhat has been put in palce to issue its own debt) from revenues from games, events, a portion of the parking for the company that has that concession, a percentage of gross concession receipts (this the $5 hotdog), etc. There is probably already something in the ticket price already.
An airport pays back the revenue bonds from fuel flowage fees, landing fees, space leasing, parking (a huge hunk of the revenues), a % of the car rental biz (another big item), plus even videogames in the lobby. You are correct that a city without a viable airport (large or small is at a disadvantage). The economic multiplier is huge. As we say in that business "an airport runway is the most important street in your town."
Rick said "That said though, I would know of no reason why a community could not form a municipal entity funded publicly if the political support was available to do so. After all communities fund parks, swimming pools, ice rinks, zoo’s and a variety of services, so why not an orchestra." You are right on track but any such municipal entity (we have Port Authority, Park District, Airport Authority why not Arts Authority) would have to follow the state's rules (in Ohio it covered in the Ohio Revised Code very specifically).
However, have we gotten to the core business problem that you have so clearly identified?
HRL
Post Edited (2004-02-11 19:18)
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2004-02-11 22:17
HRL Said
"You are right on track but any such municipal entity (we have Port Authority, Park District, Airport Authority why not Arts Authority) would have to follow the state's rules (in Ohio it covered in the Ohio Revised Code very specifically).
However, have we gotten to the core business problem that you have so clearly identified?"
Operating within the bounds of the state rules isn't all that difficult. Typically it is a matter of what money goes where within the budget structure, so budgeting becomes very important because moving money from one account to another usually takes a legislative act. I know because I was president of such a board for several years and budgeting was always an issue when someone came up with something mid term that couldn't be done because the money was lacking in a specific acct. There may have been tons of money somewhere else, but you couldn't go near it. This is why it is particularly important for appointed members of municipal boards to look 1-5 years down the road and budget.
Regarding the core issue, no it hasn't been approached and from what I see with few exceptions there doesn't seem to be much imaginative leadership going on. Also, in some cases the musicians themselves seem to have a death wish. A while back I met a couple of people involved in a now closed symphony orchestra. The board member told me of their problems and efforts they were taking which I regarded as too little too late but one program I did fully agree with was a school outreach program where orchestra members and ensembles were asked to go, speak and perform at local schools. The idea was to hopefully contact every school in the area over the course of a year. The problem was the musicians flatly refused to participate unless they were paid contract rates and the money simply wasn't available. The board member told me that they appealed to the musicians on numerous occasions and used various appeals but the musicians were adamant on the matter.
I certainly understand the desire to be paid when performing in a chosen profession, but it seems to me that a little volunteerism to promote and hopefully enhance a career is not a bad choice to make either. I've had people tell me they don't like classical music only to find out that they have never really been exposed to it. Would going to the schools over a 15 year period kept the orchestra open? Who knows, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt.
Part of my interest in and support of music came from a third grade philharmonic concert, which I don't believe is being done anymore where I lived at the time. Common sense tells you if your customer base is getting old and you don't have new ones replacing them, then your days are numbered.
BTW, the comment about the WWF and spandex may not be that bad of an idea in that perhaps orchestras need more tee-shirts and beer and less tux's and Champaign. By that I mean if you look at the Boston Pops, you see a formula that works. Perform more popular concerts to fund the other performances and attract new listeners. Although I personally would probably support a thong clad orchestra model walking across stage with a sign that said, "Movement II Adagio", I'm not sure it needs to go that far...BG!
RW
Best
Rick
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-11 22:43
Rick your comments about the musicians being "bloody minded" (I paraphrase here) is interesting. As a business ... it must, surely, be in the interests of ALL concerned to promote their product. The fact that they refused is just plain stupidity.
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2004-02-11 23:51
If Ricardo doesn't want to take the pay cut I'll be happy to take the job-I'd even do it for a 50% cut.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-02-12 02:30
Hi,
I just had dinner with a colleague that is a public finance expert. She told me that when the Omaha Sports Arena bond when through, the reason it was voted on was so as to add a sales tax percentage for repayment of the bonds.
She reiterated that each state can have very differnt rules on setting up authority-type organizations that can issue their own debt. Seldom are General Obligation (GO) Bonds used for such ventures.
Also, as I said before, she re-affirmed that bonds are for capital perjects and not for operating expenses.
HRL
PS OMA is also building a performing arts center not far from the arena. OMA is a pretty cool and progresive city with a strong symphony, opera, zoo, art museum, the College World Series, 11 colleges and universities of which 2 are medical schools, and a good share of millionaires who have been kind to the arts.
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Author: chuck
Date: 2004-02-13 03:01
J. McAulay wrote: "maybe Mrs. Kroc's estate might have given a few hundred million to the 'McDonalds Hamburger Ray Kroc Memorial Philadelphia Orchestra' " . . and I take exception to this. Joan Kroc was, and is, a highly regarded member of this community. During her lifetime, she gave millions to causes promoting world peace, education, health care, cancer research, the arts and the fight against AIDS. She died of brain cancer last year at the age of 75. One of her bequests was 1.5 billion dollars to the Salvation Army which, to my knowledge, will not be renamed the Hamburger Army. Demi-cheeseburgers and Coke were not mentioned.Chuck
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2004-02-13 03:18
Lighten up Chuck.
J McC was prolly just (jest) poking brickbats at the ubiquitous marketeering of corporate American by putting their logo/logi? on every venue known to man and inhuman.
The Enron-Andersen Consulting / Martha Stewart-Marge Schott Performing Arts and Wrestling Forum, sponsored by MTV
Post Edited (2004-02-13 03:19)
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-02-14 04:35
Through out this thread there seems to be some confusion between the operating funds of the orchestra, and the funding for its home.
The Philly Orch. is based in the Kimmel Center which was built primarily to house it. Opening in Dec. of 2001, it is at least as state of the art as the TWO brand new sports stadiums in Philly.
It was built with a combination of public and private funding and is named for Sidney Kimmel who contributed $15 Million. The major hall is named for Verizon which as Bell Atlantic contributed $12 Million.
More info is available here: http://www.kimmelcenter.org/about/story.php
P.S. Whatever trouble they are having selling seats, they're sold out for Valentine's Day! I wanted to surprise my wife. Oh Well!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-02-14 10:44
Jim,
Agreed that there is confusion. Perhaps some of the BB posters on this thread did not see my comment
"In the case of the Philadelphia Orchestra, the shortfall looks to be in operating revenues. Two different situations. It would be very unusual (and possibly illegal) for bond issue monies to be used for salaries, etc."
HRL
PS It is all about ticket sales and endowments (endowed chairs so key players can supplement their base salary from the orchestra - usually from a sustaining gift of which the interest if used for the yearly stipend).
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-02-17 17:58
Some people would rather have cheeseburgers over fine cuisine...its education that is the root of North American culture's troubles...
David Dow
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-02-17 18:01
"...its education that is the root of North American culture's troubles..."
David, I couldn't agree with you more!
Henry
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-02-17 18:28
Gosh, I didn't realize when I go to Whataburger, I'm killing the arts -- even when I stopped there last weekend after the symphony concert.
Will be sure to go to Katz 21 afterward with the other dilletantes next time.Û
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-02-17 19:13
Cities will pay more attention to funding the arts the minute a major corporation says "We chose to move our headquarters to that city instead of yours because it has a higher class orchestra and a better art museum."
It's all as simple as saying that money goes to the entertainment most popular with the people. And, apparently, most people find it more entertaining to go to football, basketball and baseball games, possibly because of the suspense in the outcome, the moments that make you want to jump up and scream, and the freedom to be yourself. Most perceive classical arts performances as being stodgy events where one has to dress up, sit still and be silent for a couple of hours. One might note, as an example, that the audiences that the Indianapolis Symphony draws to it summer outdoor "Concert on the Prairie" preformances, where people dress casually, bring food and drinks and sit on the ground or in lawnchairs, draw much larger audiences than their concert hall performances. The same, I'm sure is true for the Boston Pops Esplanade concerts, etc.
Pop (rock/rap/etc.) concerts also draw larger audiences. Although I don't fully understand the attraction of most pop music, because it is what younger people listen to on the radio daily, it is a bigger draw. Steps toward building an appreciation of the finer arts would help here.
(Hmmm...Maybe if orchestras and concert bands wore revealing, midriff bearing outfits instead of tuxes and long dresses and concerts involved a competition between groups that would lead to a national title at the end of the concert season, they could outdraw major sports AND pop stars. But I hope we can avoid "costume failures.")
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Author: Anonymous
Date: 2004-02-17 19:30
I agree most strongly with Rick...it amazes me that many musicians react so strongly when budget cuts inevitably come around, after holing up in a practice room (or at their computers..?) and either doing absolutely nothing or putting forth a minimal amount of effort in the way of outreach and education for the public (Note: this, of course, does NOT apply to everyone). How about instead of writing at length to other musicians about it, go out and share your rationales, talents, and love for music with your community and the rest of the world in order to gain support (of all kinds)?
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-02-17 19:47
I'm surprised J. Moses didn't jump in at this point, so I'll pipe up instead. I have rarely seen musicians pull into their shells rather than engage in outreach when the viability of their ensemble is threatened. There have even been notable instances where the orchestra has been driven right into the ground by its board and management only to have the MUSICIANS resurrect the orchestra from the ashes through their own charity and outreach. Further, the AFM is frequently out front doing what they can to further the message, not just as a labor union, but as a federation of artists who recognize their importance to the community culturally and economically.
I myself, in league with several other artists, have worked to create professional performing ensembles in communities that are financially able to support them but regrettably culturally bankrupt. Nobody understands better than we do what we mean to the arts and our culture, and we are out there telling the story to anyone who will listen and shouting from the rooftops at everyone who won't.
And Don, as much as I adore my colleagues, I would have to gouge my eyes out with a reed if many of them experienced wardrobe malfunctions.
Cheers.
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