 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-02-10 22:03
I'm a music major in college. I would like to study abroad my junior year, probably either in Oxford (the Sarah Lawrence program) or Vienna (IES) or somewhere in Paris. If I were to go to Vienna, I'd qualify to study at the Universität für Musik und darstellende Kunst Wien (that's a mouthful). My question: would they let me play in any ensembles with my Buffet? I'm not sure if I'd be up to or could afford a German system clarinet. Performance isn't my concentration but if I couldn't perform in Austria, that would make me lean toward going to France or England. I'm contacting the program directors to ask directly, but generally in the German-speaking world, are Bohm system clarinets allowed to mix with the Alberts?
I'm only a freshman but I need to decide whether I should continue learning German or return to the world of French courses next year.
Thanks,
Micaela
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-10 22:10
that's a very odd question ... I'm guessing you'll be studying as a music post-graduate in which case they will only be interested in your ability and interpretative skills. Any technique or machinery used would be irrelevant, you would also need to past a very stringent audition process for Vienna and a similar one for London ... I don't know about Paris. Sorry.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-02-10 22:36
Can't help you with your question, but here's a comment: it's better not to refer to a Deutschegriff Clarinet as an "Albert." They aren't so casual in Germany (and, I presume, Austria) as to how Clarinets are identified.
Planning this far ahead is a great move.
Regards,
John
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-02-10 22:46
As far as I know you can use a French system clarinet when studying in Vienna. One of my professors studied with Rudolf Jettel already in the 60th and if anything they would be more open by now than they were back then. About getting work or mix with local groups I don't know anything about.
Alphie
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-02-10 23:27
Micaela, do you know who the teacher is that you'd be studying with in Vienna?I'm going to be in Europe in June/July and am currently planning lessons in Vienna, Salzburg, Amsterdam and possibly London. For that reason, I'm also curious as to whether or not the Boehm is accepted in Vienna. The principal clarinetitst in the Melbourne Symphony (David Thomas) learnt from Roger Salander in Vienna, and i assume he played his french instruments. I have been in contact with Roger and he has agreed to give me lessons. I'm not having as much luck getting replies from Salzburg and Amsterdam.
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-02-10 23:53
Back in the '70s, my teacher studied with Alfred Prinz in Vienna. He never mentioned any problem with being a boehm player in the teacher -student situation.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-02-11 00:32
i don't think you'll have any problems with the teacher/private lesson situation- the real question is whether you will be able to play in the ensembles i think... and it's not such a silly question.
hmmmm
the first thing you need to find out is what ensembles (other than chamber groups) the place you would study offers- it may be that they don't actually have a "school orchestra" or band.... i'd be pretty sure they DONT have a marching band!
once that is established you'd need to find out from the teacher who decides who does what, and progress from there. Of course what you need to ask is "will the Boehm clarinet be held against me" as they can't tell you if you would get to play until after they've heard you.... (or a placement audition etc) It's likely that a conservatoire in Vienna would have stiff competition for spots in any orchestra!
hope this was helpful
donal
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-02-11 01:16
LeWhite...
In Vienna the heavies play Oehler system instruments made by Otmar Hammerschmidt (delve into their site and you'll find lots of close-ups to salivate over). The Reform Boehm is most popular in Holland.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-02-11 02:47
Hmmm... it sounds potentially dicey. I'm going to have to look at this in detail. I would be a junior when I would go (two years from now). I'm primarily interested in studying music history and general European history but I am a music major and still perform a lot. The programs I'm considering all have music components and find a teacher- I have no idea who. If I were to go to Oxford it would probably be as a visiting student at Wadham College.
Sorry about the "Albert" thing. I knew that wasn't quite the right word but at least it's close. I'm going to have to learn all sorts of German music words if I actually go.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-02-11 02:55
Kenbear ... indeed they do in fact the Vienna Phil plays on Hammerschmidt clarinets exclusively.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-02-11 06:01
Micaela- you won't have any problems studying on Boehm clarinet in Vienna. Neither will you have any problems playing in student ensembles. The only place you will struggle with is if you try to get a job in a professional orchestra in Austria- then you'd need to play Oehler. But why don't you make contact with the clarinets professors directly, and ask them about your concerns?
Post Edited (2004-02-11 06:02)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-02-11 06:22
Re Clarinets in Austria: as an example, do take a look at the Richard Keilwerth page http://www.keilwerth.de/800x600/index2.htm. You'll see seven German System models, five Boehm models, and three German System "special models for Austria" with "extremely wide boring." For "Austrian" Clarinets, mouthpieces and reeds are not the same as those used on German models (they're close) or Boehm Clarinets (the mouthpieces won't even fit).
Curiously, none of the Keilwerth "Austrian" models is an Oehler. Also, none of the Hammerschmidt German System Clarinets shown on their website appears to be an Oehler.
It was surprising to see http://www.hammerschmidt-klarinetten.at/cgi-bin/modelle.pl?sid=898226899167&vid=199892191539&l=deutsch&id=boehmklarinettenrs which describes the Hammerschmidt RS Clarinets, Boehm system instruments played by and named after Roger Salander. There's also an interesting brief Bio of Salander.
Regards,
John
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-02-11 07:41
Liquorice: what do you think is the best way of getting in touch with these professors? I have been visiting websites of conservatories in Switzerland and Nethlands and am having a very difficult time finding contact details for these teachers. I wish I could read dutch
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-11 08:38
The Salander Boehm instruments appear to be the same idea as a Reform Boehm; they have Boehm keywork but the bore is more like that of a German or Austrian instrument.
The typical clarinet in Austria is German system, but not an Oehler in the strict sense. Oehler instruments have a key, but no hole, under the middle finger of the right hand. Also the Austrians favour a wider bore than the Germans. Yamaha make an instrument that is quite popular with amateurs - might not impress at the Conservatoire, though.
I wonder whether the real problem with playing a Buffet will be pitch. You might find this is a lot sharper than A=440. The Hammerschmidt website has nothing to say on this subject.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-11 14:26
Micaela -
If you want to play in ensembles, you should inquire about the prevailing pitch. I've read that the Vienna Philharmonic plays at A-445, and the traditional ensembles play at A-450. With the standard (non-"F" serial number) Buffets pitched at A-440, or at best at A-442, you will not be able to get up to A-445.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-02-11 20:43
Micaela- Ken and David are both right- you'll have problems trying to play at the high pitch that they use in Austria.
Aussie Nick- I think the best way to contact the professors is to address a letter to them and post it to the Hochschule that they teach at. I did that some years ago, and got replies.
If you want further information about specific conservatories in Switzerland, please email me directly.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-02-12 01:36
Some clarification re the difference between the German and Austrian traditions. The major difference between the 2 types of clarinets is that the Austrians prefer the bellring, the Germans do not. Another difference is in the mouthpiece facing/ reed size. The Germans play on a slightly narrower reeds than the Austrians. The Vandoren White Master is there version of a German reed, the Black Master is there version of an Austrian reed. For all intents and purposes these reeds are interchangable. Some mouthpieces work better with one than the other. AW Reeds and others do not make a specific Austrian cut but rather make several variations of the German to fit as many mouthpieces as possible. There are several other unique factors about Austrian orchestras. Most also use the Viennese Oboe. This oboe is considerably fatter on the outside than conservatory models with a more ornate top and larger bell, a bit more like the classical oboe in profile. The fingering system is also a bit different. French Horns and some of the other brass use instruments fitted with what are known as Vienna valves, as opposed to the rotary valves of Germany. The Vienna valve works on a pull up system instead of a valve that turns around a pivot (rotary) or pushes down (piston). The use of Opium is also still legal provided it is consumed in the form of "Opium Tea" in one of the "Stammtischen" approved to sell it.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-02-12 06:39
Gee Mark- and all along I thought that it was the Sachertorte that was making me feel so good!
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-12 09:05
Mark, you wrote:
"French Horns and some of the other brass use instruments fitted with what are known as Vienna valves, as opposed to the rotary valves of Germany."
Being a one-time horn player, I know what Vienna valves are. But I have never seen them on any brass instrument other than a horn. I don't think many horn players use them now - maybe they survive in some traditional bands.
Do you know of any weblinks/pictures to prove me wrong?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-12 12:41
Alphie, thanks for that. Shame there seems to be no picture of the Yamaha.
I remember Paxman's shop in London having some second-hand Vienna horns in about 1974. I had understood that these were ex-Wiener Philharmoniker, being sold because the orchestra was changing to a mainstream German design. Obviously I misunderstood - or maybe the Viennese changed their minds.
I did a search on Vienna valves and found some pictures of old instruments, other than horns, with them. I'd still be interested to know whether anyone is building new brass with them, other than these horns.
Sorry, entirely the wrong BBoard for this question!
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-12 14:55
David -
The Vienna New Years concert telecast definitely showed them still using Vienna horns. If they had thought about changing, they obviously reconsidered. I've never seen a brass instrument with this type of valve, other than a horn (though, of course, the trombone, and the slide trumpet, are inherently in that style).
Do you remember where the A was on the horns at Paxman? 445? or even higher? Perhaps the horn board wisdom will know.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-12 17:22
Ken - I think you may misunderstand how a Vienna valve works. It isn't a slide operated by a lever, as your comment suggests. It is a pair of piston valves linked together. There is a picture on page 209 of Baines's book on Brass. A Vienna valve doesn't allow you to play a gliss! Its advantage over normal piston valves, or rotary valves, is that it provides a smoother airflow. Or so they claim.
No idea what the pitch of those horns was. It was 30 years ago, after all. But the pitch of brass instruments is not as critical as woodwind. Vienna horns are provided with interchangeable crooks and valve slides, so the whole instrument can be converted between F and Bb Alto. Compared to that, 5 Hz isn't too much to worry about.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-02-12 17:37
This is a Jungwirth Wiener Horn.
Post Edited (2004-02-12 17:40)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-02-12 20:09
Hmmm -- I coulda sworn I saw valve slides move in and out when the Vienna player pressed his valve levers. But the Jungwirth photo shows the valve slides facing up, so it must have been the pistons on the bottom. Merely an optical confusion.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-12 20:52
Believe me, Ken, it's the pistons that move. Their normal position is in/up. When the player presses a key, its pair of pistons move down/out, bringing the extra length of tubing into operation. The tubing extends upwards from the valves. Everything is upside down relative to an ordinary horn.
If you think about it, it would be impractical to build a horn with key-operated slides. A horn crooked in F has 12 feet of main tubing, the same length as a bass trombone. The extra tubing brought into action by the third (3 semitones) valve is one-fifth of this, over 2 feet. So the third valve tubing in your imagined design would have to move over a foot. Not only would the key be impossibly hard to push due to the leverage required, the tubing would collide with the player's anatomy.
Key-operated (actually trigger-operated) slides are used on some brass, especially flugelhorns, in order to make small tuning adjustments. They can be used for vulgar vibrato effects too. But they're never used as the main means of changing pitch.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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