 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2004-02-08 11:44
Just wondering. A couple of weeks ago there was an excellent program on the BBC, "Jews and German Music". It recounted in part the stories of musicians who were deported to the concentration camps and how they survived through playing in the bands and orchestras for their captors. One lady was 94, but she looked much younger. She said that the musicians stayed healthy, while others succumbed to illness, because they had their music to look forward to in the evenings. It was very moving and was a great reminder of the life-affirming force of music.
Does anyone know if there is a book about the above topic (i.e. musicians in the camps?)?
Elizabeth
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-02-08 16:55
ALOMARvelous12 wrote:
> hehe, Oliver Messiaen sure comes to mind...
What's so funny?? ...GBK
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-08 17:59
It should perhaps be pointed out that Elizabeth's question is about concentration camp prisoners.
GBK's recommended book is about Messiaen and the composition of the Quartet for the End of Time. Messiaen was imprisoned in Stalag VIIIA in Silesia, which was not a concentration camp but a prisoner-of-war camp. PoW camps may not have been the jolliest of places, but the prisoners were not generally in fear of their lives. Indeed Messiaen returned to France long before the end of the war, to become a professor at the Conservatoire.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-02-08 19:16
It seems that there are two questions. One is the subject of the thread, another is regarding a book..
David, do remember that Stalag VIIIA was controlled by the SS, same as as were other similar facilities and concentration camps. Agreed, those lagered in VIIIA were better off than those in the "Arbeit Mach Frei" camps, but only to the minimum extent protected by various Geneva onventions. Even Hermann Goering didn't trust the SS to care for prisoners reasonably, which is why he insisted that his own Luftwaffe troops be in charge of all flying prisoners. He feared if Allied air prisoners were ill treated, the allies might retaliate by abusing Luftwaffe prisoners.
I suggest that claiming the Stalag VIIIA "prisoners were not generally in fear of their lives" appears to be an assertion based on guessing, unless there is some report to the contrary of which I am unaware.
As far as the question of whether musicians live longer, I don't believe that's true... we just feel that way.
Regards,
John
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Author: Anonymous
Date: 2004-02-08 19:38
You might be interested in The Inextinguishable Symphony: A True Story of Music and Love in Nazi Germany, by Martin Goldsmith. It can be found by searching at Amazon.com.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-08 20:25
John McA -
We are getting some way from clarinets, but you might care to read http://www.pegasus-one.org/pow/cSt_8A_History1.htm. I cannot vouch for its accuracy - and it quotes Messiaen's own questionable recollections uncritically - but a camp in which:
"Breakfast would follow, after which the prisoners were free to indulge in whatever pursuits they thought fit until lunch, which was dished out from 10:00 onwards. Following this the men went back to their business, and the day might culminate with a play or film, or a big football match that would be watched by a large crowd. "
... is hardly to be compared to a concentration camp.
In the same site, we can find a list of theatrical productions - which were in English and therefore clearly not for the entertainment of the guards - and we are told that:
"in total over the period of their stay the British received: 9 saxophones, 4 trumpets, 1 trombone, 2 cellos, 2 double-basses, 6 violins, 1 viola, 4 clarinets, 1 flute, 1 piccolo, 25 piano accordions, 1 piano, 1 harmonium, 2 drum kits, and 250 mouth organs."
Elsewhere (http://www.memoire-net.org/~meminfo/article.php3?id_article=111) we read:
"Il y a 1 850 000 prisonniers en 1940. Ils sont encore 940 000 en 1944-45. Beaucoup d’entre eux ne sont libérés seulement en 44-45 et 37 000 ne rentreront jamais, morts en captivité."
That appears to mean that 2% of French PoW's died in captivity. Perhaps they were in fear of their lives, but that statistic suggests that their chances of survival in the camps were a great deal better than their chances of survival in battle. And don't forget that, if you lock up a million people for five years some of them are going to die regardless of how well you treat them.
None of this is to suggest that the PoWs in German camps had it easy. Just to make the point that their suffering is not to be compared with that of the people of whom Elizabeth speaks.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2004-02-08 20:49)
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-02-08 20:57
Jimmy Blanto, a virtuoso bass player for Duke Ellington in the 40s, died age 21. Benny Carter, genius player of trumpet clarinet and saxophone, died last year age 90 something.
I can't comment on your concentration camp scenarios, sad as they are.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-02-09 00:49
Perhaps the musicians in the camp lived longer, not necessarily because they were musicians, but because the music gave them something to look forward to resulting in a positive atitude. Positive atitude is not a cure all, but it can be a powerful force.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-02-09 16:21
A great, interesting, stimulating discussion. I've been trying to find a pertinent quote which I recall from the old PBS documentary {"Civilisation" and its book by Kenneth Clark, Harper, 1969} about the influence of the art. Paraphrased, "the nearest human approach to perfection is in music". There are many refs in Bartlett's well worth reading. I've found that the concentration required to play even simple music well makes the "cares of the world" disappear, in partic. Bach and Handel et al [for me]. My opinion is YES. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-02-09 17:00
David: Thanks for the links. They offered some very thought-provoking reading, leading to substantiation of your original position.
Perhaps a more important feature of life as a Stalag detainee (as opposed to concentration camp existemce) is found later in the paragraph you quoted from the second link, regarding the values of the prisoners: "fraternité, solidarité, et haine de l’Allemand (dans un premier temps) qui les a retenus, amplifiées certainement par le long enfermement." These attributes hardly characterize those in serious fear for their lives. One can easily imagine that these strengths would wither under pressures of seeing ones colleagues methodically slain or disappearing.
Regards,
John
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2004-02-09 18:26
Thanks for your replies and the reading suggestions. I meant my second question as a "btw" question, but it has stimulated the most discussion. I think marcia has hit upon the connection I was trying to make re. music in those awful surroundings — perhaps if their captors wanted them to make quilts in the evenings that would have kept them going as much as making music. But as Don says, music can transport you away from the cares of the world, and the 94 year old survivor said that's exactly what she felt when she could play in the evenings. Perhaps music therapists would know something about this.
Elizabeth
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2004-02-12 22:05
There was a wonderful movie made about women interred in a POW camp under dreadful conditions in SE Asia during WWII, who formed a vocal orchestra and performed symphonic works, without instruments or scores. One of the prisoners had been a violininist and was able to recall (and teach) all the different orchestral parts from memory. I think the movie is called Paradise Road and is apparently based on a true story. Very moving!
tetiana
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-02-13 02:42
FWIW, my grandfather died last year at the age of 94.5 and couldn't sing a hymn tune IN tune...
Katrina
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