 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: James
Date: 1999-11-30 00:57
I know that everyone on this board thinks that Vandoren reeds are inconsistent. I like their reeds because when you find the "right" one no other reeds can match it's sound and durability. But, most of their reeds are not cut properly, are very unsymetrical, and the heel thickness vary tremendously from reed to reed in the same box. All these factors make many of their reeds unplayable. Also Vandoren reed are also much more expensive than other reeds. If they use a machine to cut these reeds why are they so inconsistent? A reed with the ideal reed shape is probably one or two in the box. Does anyone know of a good explaination why Vandoren, one of the premier supplier of reeds and mouthpieces produces such inconsistent reeds? Maybe if every clarinet player using Vandorens started complaining about this problem to the company they may do something about it.
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-11-30 01:24
No one except Vandoren knows the reason.
I recently became doubtful whether 'French' reeds are made of Var cane grown up in France. Considering the growing demand and shrinking supply of natural canes,it is impossible! They may import foreign canes and cut them in France,which they may call 'French' reeds.
They became like sponge comparing good old days reeds.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-11-30 03:23
Vandoren posted an answer to that question, but I don't remember what web site I saw it on. It might be here. The summary was that it is done on purpose so that everybody can find at least one good reed in a box, or something to that effect.
To me, that is ludicrice rationalization for a poor quality department. By using statistical design of experiments, control charting, and some decision-making authority, I could get Vandoren (or any other reed manufacturer) to turn out the most consistent reeds in the industry within a couple years, maybe less.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-30 03:29
Rick,
Part of that makes sense. If you buy a box of 3 1/2s I'd assume they'd vary between 3 1/4 to 3 3/4 since they're sold in 1/2 strength increments.
However, I can't excuse their sloppy cutting - I've had some that were not only off-center but on a diagonal.
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Author: Bino
Date: 1999-11-30 04:23
A reed that may work great for me, may not work for you,and vice versa...For every player there is a different stength of embouchure...different mouthpieces,ligatures,etc. With all the inconsisency of players and their equipment out there it is no wonder Vandoren is also inconsistent...How do you put 10 perfect reeds in a box for one player without forgeting the millions of clarinetists that will not be able to play on any of the so called perfect reeds?...You mix it up so that out of a box of ten 3-4 reeds may work for you, while the other 3-4 may work for someone else...The last 2-4 reeds are trash and wouldn't help any1 out...At least thats what I believe...Take out of it what you will AND SELL THE REST
Mark Charette wrote:
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Rick,
Part of that makes sense. If you buy a box of 3 1/2s I'd assume they'd vary between 3 1/4 to 3 3/4 since they're sold in 1/2 strength increments.
However, I can't excuse their sloppy cutting - I've had some that were not only off-center but on a diagonal.
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Author: Barry
Date: 1999-11-30 08:27
Here in Paris, you can go to Vandoren with your favorite reed and have them supply 10 just like it. I find that this usually gives me at least seven or eight good ones in a box. Is this service available by mail? I don't know, but you could always write to them and ask.
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Author: William
Date: 1999-11-30 16:47
Barry--maybe they use a Reed-Dual. Or a Wizard????? :>) lol. Check it out and let use know if they take mail-in orders.
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Author: Donn
Date: 1999-11-30 19:51
IMHO, the lack of quality control by reed mfrs could lead to the same type of consumer revolt that led American consumers to foreign cars. This in turn resulted in a vast improvement in American car quality. Consumers: REVOLT
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Author: Barry
Date: 1999-11-30 21:17
Well, if you want to try ordering, It's Vandoren et Cie, 56 rue Lepic, 75018 Paris. When I was there the other week, most of the other customers were Americans or Brazilians, so they are very well used to dealing with a non-Parisian clientele. BTW, 10 reeds here costs about 100 francs, or some $15. How does that compare with chez vous?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-30 23:26
A friend of mine in the business just sent me this:
A lot has been said about Vandoren and what they do and don't do. I visited them this summer in Paris at rue Lepic. The reeds there are stored in a humidity controlled vault and one can purchase these reed after testing them on a machine that does a bend test to determine the strength, you cannot play test them unless you buy them first (obviously) . If people want to buy them to match a reed they have the reed would first have to be conditioned to the same humidity and hope it doesn't warp in the process. My advice would be to find someone locally that could offer this service. I hope this is of some help.
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-12-01 01:01
I kept buying Vandoren hand selected and Orivielli during 1970's and I brought my stock to U.S. during 1985-1987 when I worked for a U.S./Japanese joint venture company. Those reeds lasted incredibly long.
After I came back to Japan, and checking every new hand selected boxes I found something conspicuously wrong are teking place in spite of their keeping high prices. Buying some 10 boxes, only one is playable or none. It takes too much money! I started to search Orivielli in stead but could not find any. (Later I found their ownership changed at Klarinet mailing list.) I gave up playing clarinet and started flute again and gave my RC Prestige to my brother although I love clarinet sound with superb reed far better than flute. Now I learned at the middle of 1980's a big chill weather attacked Europe and Var region canes are greatly damaged during that year. This matches my experience. Reeds manufacturers supply their best reeds in big bulk to proffessional orchestras first, and then sell others at shops. Maybe pros obtained good ones at the inventory. (If I were a pro, I would have done so.)
When Selmer 10SII came up with a big improvement and Rico Grand Concert Select started to be sold, I started clarinet again. (They are consistent but cannot catch the level of old Vandoren hand selected obviously, and started to search better ones.)
Consistensy? No. Absolute quality matters.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-01 02:20
I've found Vandorens to be basically crap since I can remember. 1-2 good reeds per box based on cane quality (not even the balancing which I do myself). Until the Grand Concert reed came along, I couldn't find any other reed that came close to a good Vandoren. Now the Grand Concert's give me the sound that I want, and the balance that my time needs. No more monkeying with reeds.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-12-01 02:57
Consider this: If you bought a box of say 3 strength reeds, and you knew that every time you selected a reed, it would be identical to the last one you selected within 0.1% you would be able to 1) know what you get, 2) evaluate reeds for different conditions and stock up on a number of slightly different strengths or cuts for different occasions. 3) play every reed out of the box or with a set reed working routine, close to the same every time. 4) control the reed market. 5) Know by buying one individual reed if this strength/cut is right for you and try another if it isn't. Once you find your reeds, you can forget about what to buy and finding good reeds. I stand by my original post.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-01 03:05
Rick2 wrote:
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[snip]
And who whould buy the 3.03s? Or the 3.05s? etc. There is no point to grading reeds that finely:
1) You'd have to stock them in 100ths of a strength (1/4 strengths have never sold well - why would they want to go even finer?)
2) The strengths at the factory when tested would probably give you a higher variance by the time you got to use them.
3) You're going to play in Denver. What strength should you use?
4) If they only sold the 1/2 strengths, what do they do with the ones that aren't within 1% of the strength needed? Throw them out?
5) Use Zondas - they're graded much finer than Vandorens.
I have no problem at all with a box of 3 1/2s that vary from 3 1/4 to 3 3/4 - because I vay that much. If they could only cut them straight & even ...
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-12-01 03:07
Well I shall be the lone dissenting voice. I find regular Vandorens to play quite nicely for me with a very high percentage of acceptable reeds in the box.
I have tried Rico Royal, Vandoren V12, Marca and Oliveri reeds. All were ok but none seem to work as well for me as the regular Vandoren.
My alternate reed of choice is the Mitchell Lurie line (regular or premium).
Somedays, the Vandorens play better and on others the Mitchell Luries. Vagaries of the weather and player I guess.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-01 12:55
Dee, have you tried the Grand Concerts?? Makes the Mitchel Luries seem like average student reeds.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-12-01 14:09
I live in an area that caters to a very large student crowd, a lot of determined amateurs, and a high number of professsionals. Yet none of the stores have the apparently higher grade reeds (Grand Concerts, White Master, Black Master, Zonda, etc.) on their shelves. So, how can an average novice grade consumer like me fetch a box or two of these better reeds retail?
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Author: James
Date: 1999-12-01 20:46
Barry are sure about this? Are you saying that they match the reed I like in shape, strength, and reed quality. I have never heard of such a thing. It will be great if this service is possible for me here in America. Thanks.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-12-02 00:45
Dave Blumberg wrote:
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Dee, have you tried the Grand Concerts?? Makes the Mitchel Luries seem like average student reeds.
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No that's one I have not tried. Since I happen to like what I use now, there isn't a whole lot of motivation to test out something different. Maybe when I get in one of my restless moods, I'll try them.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-02 02:38
WW&BW 800-348-5003
IMS 800-762-1116
Muncy 800-333-6415
Weiner 800-622-2675
Among others that is my short list of suppliers. All are great, all have complaints from individuals.
Mark Charette wrote:
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Mail order, Paul. Cheap & easy.
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Author: Dave Blumberg
Date: 1999-12-02 02:56
I've felt the same about my equipment for several years. Peace with the equipment is a good virtue to strive for. Ya just make it work.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-12-02 03:38
You miss my point, Mark. Of course you wouldn't carry 500 different strengths. If every 3.0 reed you ever bought since the time you started playing were between 2.99 and 3.01, or even +/- .1 probably you wouldn't worry about the strength. You'd be used to 3.0 and could play on 3.0 whatever the situation. For me, I've played the same reed in Phoenix Arizona, Milan Italy, Grenoble France, and Los Angeles California, and found the differences to be quite minimal.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-12-02 03:57
Rick2 wrote:
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You miss my point, Mark. Of course you wouldn't carry 500 different strengths. If every 3.0 reed you ever bought since the time you started playing were between 2.99 and 3.01, or even +/- .1 probably you wouldn't worry about the strength. You'd be used to 3.0 and could play on 3.0 whatever the situation. For me, I've played the same reed in Phoenix Arizona, Milan Italy, Grenoble France, and Los Angeles California, and found the differences to be quite minimal.
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Now your last sentence is the one I find strange. Just staying here in one location, I find that the very same reed may feel like a limp noodle on one day and a popsicle stick on another!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-02 13:42
Rick2 wrote:
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You miss my point, Mark. Of course you wouldn't carry 500 different strengths. If every 3.0 reed you ever bought since the time you started playing were between 2.99 and 3.01, or even +/- .1 probably you wouldn't worry about the strength.
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You missed my point - if there are reeds from 2.9 to 3.1, then there's reeds from 3.1 to 3.3, 3.3 to 3.5, 3.5 to 3.7, etc. You must
1) Market every range if you are to maintain a consistent profile
2) Change the profile to put reeds into a particular range (and guess what - reeds of identical strength but different profiles don't play the same!)
3) Throw out the ones that don't meet your selected strength criteria.
As I mentioned before, 1/4 strength reeds were marketed and were consistent (and well cut!) but the market wasn't there.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-12-02 15:25
...and I'm glad that Dave Blumberg asked my implied question about suppliers and their phone numbers.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-12-02 16:21
Dee wrote:
Just staying here in one location, I find that the very same reed may feel like a limp noodle on one day and a popsicle stick on another!
Had a dream like that once. I was trying to fasten a reed onto the mouthpiece. The tip of the reed kept flopping down over the ligature. I'd smooth it back up there. It would look fine. I'd start to tighten the screws and -- flop! Finally I decided to take that reed off and throw it out. I tossed it toward the wastepaper bin. The reed started flapping in the air the way a dolphin swims and flew off through the window! Guess it didn't like being tied to a clarinet and forced to sing for a living....
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-02 16:35
Lelia wrote:
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[snip]
Lelia,
are you sure Salvador Dali wasn't in your dream too???
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Author: Barry
Date: 1999-12-02 21:12
James:
All I'm saying is that they try to match the characteristics of the reed you give them in terms of strength and flexibility. Of course, it doesn't always work but on average I find that I get a very high proportion of decent reeds from each box. Just to show how impartial I am, let me also sing the praises of Glotin reeds. They are slightly softer than Vandorens, and quite consisent.
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Author: J. Calhoun
Date: 1999-12-02 23:27
I'm with Rick2. Not to offend anyone, but how many of you are involved in manufacturing anything? Those of us who are, understand that variation is antithetical to a perception of quality on the part of the end user. I can assure you the first manufacturer that can make every reed in a box of 3's be within 0.05 reed strengths of 3.0, and every reed in a box of 3.5's be within 0.05 reed strengths of 3.5, etc., will CASH IN BIG TIME. And it's not only the basic strength, it's also the consistency of stiffness over the entire reed. So currently you get one that's too stiff down low, but soft up top, and the next one is the other way, and so on.
The technical problem to be solved here has several dimensions:
1) Reeds are cut from a natural product that varies even within one stick.
2) As reeds are played, their properties change with time, and each reed ages a little differently.
3) Pre-processing is extremely important.
Whether or not these issues have truly been studied by the reed manufacturers I cannot answer. It seems that as reed quality and consistency decline, first revenues increase as musicians buy more to get usable ones. But then at some point they give up on that brand, and revenues fall off sharply.
The only way to solve this is to do what Rick2 said. Put someone in charge of solving the problem, who is not responsible for getting this week's production out the door, good or bad. Let that person seriously study the problem and try out various tests until the reed manufacturing process is improved.
This is very difficult to sell to company managements until the company is about to go under, and sometimes not even then.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-03 01:21
J. Calhoun wrote:
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>I'm with Rick2. Not to offend anyone, but how many of you are involved in manufacturing anything?
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I have been for quite a few years!
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>Those of us who are, understand that variation is antithetical to a perception of quality on the part of the end user. I can assure you the first manufacturer that can make every reed in a box of 3's be within 0.05 reed strengths of 3.0, and every reed in a box of 3.5's be within 0.05 reed strengths of 3.5, etc., will CASH IN BIG TIME.
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And will be called G_d. Natural reeds are just that - natural. You can't control the flexibility of the reed, only its dimensions. If you hold the dimensions constant, the natural material won't be consistent.
Zonda will give you natural reeds that are within a tightly controlled range if you ask - but they're not cashing in big time. I don't like the way they sound. There's a lot more to it than just strength.
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>And it's not only the basic strength, it's also the consistency of stiffness over the entire reed. So currently you get one that's too stiff down low, but soft up top, and the next one is the other way, and so on.
>The technical problem to be solved here has several dimensions:
[snip]
Whether or not these issues have truly been studied by the reed manufacturers I cannot answer.
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The reed manufacturers are well aware of these. They're not as stupid as people would think ...
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>It seems that as reed quality and consistency decline, first revenues increase as musicians buy more to get usable ones.
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That's a complaint since the turn of the century ...
There are few things you can do easily:
1) Use Zondas - there's an article here on Sneezy on how to read their grades.
2) make your own reeds - then you're responsible for them. Other musicians do.
3) Switch to a synthetic reed such as Legere.
It would be nice if we could force mother nature into being consistent. But with cane quality varying from year to year as wines do, there's an inherent problem in getting the same quality year after year. Come to think of it, maybe I should complain about wines, too ...
Personally, I can't see why there's a mechanical problem with creating well-cut reeds. There's <B>NO</B> excuse for that. If the problem were just natural variability I could live with it.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-12-03 03:13
Masrk said:
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there's reeds from 3.1 to 3.3, 3.3 to 3.5, 3.5 to 3.7
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Ah, but there is my point. You don't make those. The more you understand you process, the further back you push those undesired reeds. You start catching them in the raw material at incoming inspection, then you push it farther back into the raw cane supplier's shoulders not to deliver it to you. So inthe end, you make reeds in the traditional strengths and you package as advertised.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-03 03:22
Rick2 wrote:
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Masrk said:
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there's reeds from 3.1 to 3.3, 3.3 to 3.5, 3.5 to 3.7
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Ah, but there is my point. You don't make those.
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Why not? Personally, a 3.3 would be my (current) perfect choice. Not making them would force your idea of perfection on me.
Now, have you ever tried making a reed? Try it sometimes. You'll find that a single tube will give you varying strengths. Now - how are you going to stop _that_ variance.
cane is not a manufactured product. It varies millimeter to millimeter - or we wouldn't have those occasional hard spots. This whole thing is why I think something like the Legere reeds will catch on - Guy started with a good and reasonably controllable product and is now in the incremental refinement stage - because the product is reproducible.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-12-03 03:23
I had conversation with an executive of a reed manufacturering company about a year ago by email. I will not name names. This manufacturer told me that they did not use statistical techniques of any kind. I suggested that he consider hiring a CQE. I also pointed out a number of articles onthe ASQC public web site that backed up my points with this person. He told me that he would consider my suggestions. Whether they were ever implemented, I don't know. I work in semiconductors (in fact, we won the 1999 Malcolm Baldridge award), where the wrong species of atom in the wrong place is a killer to the process. These methods are the ONLY way to make this product yield. It will work for any and all industries, including reeds.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-12-04 03:22
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This whole thing is why I think something like the Legere reeds will catch on - Guy started with a good and reasonably.
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I understand that the raw materials are natural products. I just get the feeling that not enough study using modern engineering techniques have beeen applied to the reed problem. It doesn't stop with the reed manufacturer. The cane growers need to be involved to determine how to grow consistent cane. Ed Deming started in the department of agriculture and the whole science of modern quality methods began in agriculture. My whole argument is that using the methods it is possible to cost effectively package what you claim is in the box.
When I say you don't make 3.3 reeds, what I mean is that you don't make 3.3 reeds when you are manufacturing 3.0 reeds or 3.5 reeds. You manufacture them when you are trying to make them. You don't package 3.3 reeds as scrap from your 3.5 line. Whether you actually target 3.3 is a question to be answered by marketing, not engineering.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-12-04 03:25
I forgot to mention the reason that I quoted your bit about Legere. I don't know what it is, be it my emboucher or my mouthpiece, but I simply can't get a Legere reed to work effectively for me. I always have problem between clarion G and C where I squeek no matter how tight or loose I hold my emboucher.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-12-04 03:55
Rick,
Make sure you discuss this with Guy Legere. When I talked about his incremental refinement, I meant it. He's always looking for feedback on his product.
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