 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: ALOMARvelous12
Date: 2004-01-23 22:30
I, as well as probably numerous others, read this board closely and have picked up a great deal of stuff on clarinets, music, and musicians. However, since bulletin boards are only for writing and not speaking, I have compiled a list of common and important names with pronounciations that I am not sure of and may not be 100% sure to many others either.
R. Marcellus (is the C in marcellus soft ['s'] or hard ['k'] or is it 'ch'?)
O. Messsaen (spelling?)
M. Nuccio
A. Messager
H. Rabaud
L. Spohr
Baermann
R. Morales
C. Nedrich (spelling?)
That's all I could think of for now.
EDIT
and this just popped into my head. is the last 'e' silent in 'concertante'?
Post Edited (2004-01-24 02:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ChrisC
Date: 2004-01-23 22:39
Two that I know for sure are Baermann=BEAR-man and Morales (a very common surname) is more-AL-is. Messaien I'm pretty sure is mess-see-OHN, based on my knowledge of French, but everyone seems to pronounce it a little differently and I don't know if there really is a definitive pronunciation among English speakers or if my "educated" guess is the correct French way, but it's got to be pretty close.
One personal bugaboo that I have regarding musical pronunciation is that practically everybody, including composers and music professors, who mention Paul Hindemith prounounce the "th" as in the word "myth." That particular sound does not exist in German and the correct pronunciation is as if it is spelled "Hindemit." After all, we don't pronounce the "th" in Beethoven! I've actually gotten quite worked up about that on occasion, despite the fact that I don't care much for his (Hindemith's? music!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Keil
Date: 2004-01-24 02:01
This is how i've learned them myself... i'm interested in other thoughts. I'm currently in a really great linguistics class so this is interesting to me
Mar-Sell-us
Mess-se-aun *there are variations on this general pronunciation*
Nu-Chee-O
Mes-aj-jhay
Ruh-Bo *i believe*
Spor
Bear-man or Beer-man *depending on english dialect i'm sure*
Mor-AL-es *i'm also a spanish major*
Ni-dik *but i'm not too sure*
another one that always trips me up is Poulenc, i know it's Poo-lank but i prefer hearing Poo-LAUNK, i'm odd.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ALOMARvelous12
Date: 2004-01-24 02:13
hmm, interesting you bring up Poulenc. I always prefered "pole-lenk" rather than the actual pronounciation.
and Marcellus sounds better with the 'ch' (as in chair) to me than with the 's'
Now I know how to say "Messager". I had used to always call him a massager (as in someone who does massages)
I like saying Nuccio with a 'k' sound where the double c's are
Oh, and Claude Debussy. His name can be pronounced either with emphasis on the 'De' and sometimes with emphasis on the "Bussy". I prefer emphasizing the 'De'.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-24 02:48
Sphor is not pronounced spor .... rather schpor, in my view.
The other tricky one is Niels Gade where his surname is pron. Gae-ther. A "D" before a vowel in Danish takes on a soft sound (like the "th" in thy). A K in Swedish at the beginning of a word takes on a sch sound, very odd them Swedes.
Tak skal du har, min kære ... min Svenska er ikke so godt, men min Dansk er meget flot.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-24 16:43
Assuming I have the same artists in mind, the correct spellings for two of the above are:
Messiaen
Neidich
I don't want to go into the correct pronunciations. Especially the vowel sounds in German and French are almost impossible to get right for English-speaking people (the reverse is true as well!) and difficult to capture on paper. At least both French and German are purely phonetic languages. So, once you learn the rules, you are set! (In French, it is good to remember also that the accent is almost always on the last syllable.) Although phonetic as well, Hungarian presents its own difficulties (I know: my wife is a Magyar). For example, Kodaly is pronounced Ko-DYE, with the accent on DYE.
Henry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-24 18:25
don't forget that "Paul" Hindemith isn't "Porwl" or "Pour-ll" but... um
"Powl" like "owl"
well, not really- boy this is tricky. I reccently called Charles Neidich "Mr Neidich" with a big german "cccchhhh" at the end of the word (rather than "Neidick") and he didn't flinch for a seccond, but maybe he was being nice (or used to it).
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-24 19:07
"...Call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for dinner..." ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-01-24 20:00
Reminds me of the time that our college contemporary ensemble and wind ensemble went on tour. While waiting (forever) for our flight to board, a couple of the low brass pranksters went to the airport's info desk and had a couple of folks paged...
Messiaen and Copland were the two I remember...
Katrina
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-24 20:10
Marcellus, Morales or Messager?
Mendelsohn, Mozart or Massenet?
Beethoven, Bartok or Bizet?
Baermann, Benny or Bechet?
Bach, Bird or Boulez?
I really don't know what to play today!
Henry
Post Edited (2004-01-24 20:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-25 00:01
My advice is a careful review,
Of those names, as they can give a clue.
Whether a short "E" or long,
Or a weak vowel or strong,
Just check before getting a tatoo.
If you fail to follow my plan,
Or have a short attention span.
A mistake can be tragic,
One you can't fix by magic.
On your arm it just may read "BEAR MAN" ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-25 01:41
Tattooing was far from my mind,
on my arms, or on my behind.
The problem is: "Whose work to play?"
There's just too much choice, GBK!
And Baermann or Kroepsch is a grind!
Henry
Post Edited (2004-01-25 02:12)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-25 01:59
Those names are some tough ones to say.
I've heard them said every which way.
Just like all minor scales,
Which take careful details
I'd practice them 10 times a day...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-01-25 03:02
What about Szymanowski and Rautavaara? I don't think I can rhyme anything to that.
I think Rabaud is closer to Ruah-bow (ruah sort of like the beginng of "raw," not sort of like ruhe in German) than Ru-bo, Keil.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-25 03:16
Micaela wrote:
> What about Szymanowski and Rautavaara? I don't think I can
> rhyme anything to that.
You say you can't rhyme Rautavaara?
I think he's an eyeglass wearer.
He served once in the war;
The reserve training corps.
His job? A stretcher-bearer... GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-01-25 03:34
Morales = Mo - RAH - less (not More-AL-is).
In Spanish, "o" is always pronounced as "oh," "a" is pronounced as "ah," and "e" is pronounced as "eh." And while I'm at it, "i" is pronounced "ee" and "u" is pronounced "oo."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-01-25 04:27
You say you can't rhyme Szymanowski?
His music was played by Stokowski.
Or maybe it wasn't
but that really doesn't
make any difference now doeski.
Some clarinet players who thought
they could write poetry really ought
to spend less time practicing Baermann and Kroepsch
and more writing doggeral .... NOT!
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-01-25 18:47
Szymanowski is pronounced ' Shimanoffski'.
Jo (of Polish descent!)
Joanna Brown
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-25 21:46
If we are on proNUNciations, the proNUNciation for the heading of this thread, AND the spelling, is not 'proNOUNciation' but 'proNUNciation'. :-)
I mention this at risk of breaking forum rules, but the writer, ALOMARvelous12, would apparently be interested in such matters.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-25 21:50
Boehm has one syllable. It is pronounced very roughly as "berm", to rhyme with "germ" or "worm".
That pronounciation will, however, shock the purists. The "oe" vowel sound should be pronounced with the lips forward and rounded. Much the same sound as the city of Koeln (Cologne in English) or the composer Schoenberg. Exactly the same sound as Boehm's competitor Oehler.
Main thing is, it is not "bo-em". Many contributors here seem to spell it as "bohem" - whether that's also how they pronounce it I shudder to think.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-25 21:58
David Peacham wrote:
> Boehm has one syllable. It is pronounced very roughly as
> "berm", to rhyme with "germ" or "worm".
> Main thing is, it is not "bo-em".
Unless you are a big fan of Puccini ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CPW
Date: 2004-01-25 22:04
You say Gig-liotti
I say Jiliotti
You say Kadahli
I say Kodye
You say hello
and now I say ...goodbye
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Douglas
Date: 2004-01-25 22:09
This is either a slow news day or everyone has found the perfect reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-25 22:09
Gordon.... You are right, of course. That's why I spelled the word in my first post in this thread the correct way (as did ChrisC). I thought everyone would have gotten the point by now!
David....You are wrong. Boehm is not pronounced like "berm", "germ" or "worm". The German "oe" (or "o" with an umlaut) is apparently something beyond the capability of English-speaking people to pronounce. Perhaps we should just leave it at that. I have tried my whole life to teach people and haven't succeeded. It's like trying to teach people to say "deja vu" the correct way. (Sorry, I don't know how to put the accent d'ecu and accent grave on the "deja"). "Vu" is not pronounced as in "VOO" but I guess it is a lost cause!
Henry
Post Edited (2004-01-26 01:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-26 05:13
Henry writes: "The German "oe" (or "o" with an umlaut) is apparently something beyond the capability of English-speaking people to pronounce."
Perhaps so, but not beyond those of the Scots persuasion. I've always believed the ö sound to be most closely approximated by the average English-speaker while making an attempt to avoid retching. Yes, it is hard to describe. But if you can say "berm" without pronouncing the "r," you will be at least close to a passable Böhm (or Boehm).
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-26 09:52
In typical NZ dialect, the 'r' of 'berm' would not be pronounced anyway.
All the Scottish people I know pronounce their 'r's very fully.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-26 10:53
Henry -
Before you tell me I am wrong, perhaps you would do me the courtesy of reading what I wrote. I did not write that Boehm is pronounced like berm. I wrote that it is pronounced VERY ROUGHLY as berm. I then went on to attempt to describe why this is only an approximation. No doubt I erred in not stating that I was assuming southern English pronunciation. Of course, a rolled r like berrrrrrrm would give entirely the wrong effect.
I do not know where you have got this idea that English speakers cannot produce an adequate approximation of French and German vowels. If you have spent your entire life trying and failing to teach people the difference in sound between vous and vu, I suggest this says more about your limitations as a teacher than it does about people's inability to learn.
If you do intend to teach French, perhaps you should also know that the first accent on deja is not called an accent d'ecu, a term which is unknown to the French language. It is an accent aigu: an acute accent.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-01-26 16:26
Not to pick nits, but my German teacher way back in high school taught us to pronounce the "oe" (sorry no time to find an umlaut) by this method:
All you have to do is shape your lips like you were going to say "oh" but say "eeee" (or "i" for other pronouncers) instead.
Katrina
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-26 17:04
David....Touche! (with "accent aigu"). Your point about "aigu" is well taken! I should have looked it up before going by "intuition".
I stick to the point , however, that it is exceedingly difficult (if not impossible) for people who grow up with English to correctly pronounce most French and German vowels. I do not think I have met a single American who pronounces "vu" correctly. (Brits do usually better because of their stronger emphasis on foreign languages and the EU.) But...there are always exceptions. I once heard an American-born friend give a scientific lecture in French, right in Paris, that actually sounded like real French!
Please don't take this personally. After all, I very much appreciate the various accents that I (being in the US) hear around me all the time. And, as a Dutchman, and having lived here for 40 years, I still have not been able to shake my accent completely. For example, the (for us) subtle difference between the vowel sound in "pat" and "pet" is very difficult to get right. There are other examples galore. Mea culpa!
Peace!
Henry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2004-01-26 20:10
Henry, for the accents
try alt 133 for à
alt 138 for è
alt 130 for é
alt 136 for ê
and so on...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Keil
Date: 2004-01-27 00:29
Actually don, in spanish the "r" sound would be more closely linked with the "O" as in the word "more" to facilitate a slight roll of the "r" not a heavy roll as in the word "zorro" or "perro" but a slight , for lack of a better term, bump of the "r", however, considering the speed at which the word is said one can hardly hear a difference between the two pronunciations. Your pronunciation is a bit more "open" on the unstressed syllables as oppose to mine. Fortunately for both of us spanish does not a completely concrete set of pronunciations rules, there are quite a few spanish dialects which slightly differ from spanish heard in the americas, for example, traditionally in spanish or castillian depending where you're from one would make a strong "y" sound when saying "ll", however, in argentina for instance that "y" sound has been softened to make a more of a "shh" or soft "j" sound so instead of saying "Yo hablo" in argentina one would be more apt to say "sho hablo". Also in spain the "s" or soft "c" sound they utilize what we know as a lisp. It's a slight aspiration placed on the "sss" sound to form a "th" sound for example instead of "reservaciones" one from spain would be more likely to say "retherbathioneths"
cheers
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
