 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-01-21 17:26
It is really the audiences that lose the most here, when one considers they expect to hear a live orchestra and management going virtual we have the classic setting for a fight...
sadly, the problem is an international one and really one wonders where the students of today are going to end up!!!
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-21 23:18
Ken Shaw ... no matter how good the technology ... I certainly wouldn't attend a performance with a robot in the pit.
Also, interestingly, Sir Cameron Mackintosh's webiste has no information on it (except some groovy graphics-not). So one can't write and express feelings, most vexing.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-01-21 23:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-22 13:32
As I previously posted some time ago....one of the worst letdowns I ever had was attending a ballet that was accompanied by taped music.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-01-22 14:08
On the Scotsman story -- the producer wasn't forced to move the show to a theater with a small pit. He did it to have an excuse to force out the live musicians. Unfortunately, we can expect more strong-arm tactics.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2004-01-22 14:55
The replacement of live musicians in the pit orchestras is a tradgic by product of the otherwise beneficial technological age we now live in. And now that it is affecting major performing venues like New York City and London, musicians everywhere must lend support in any way possible, least we all someday lose our jobs.
But for us in the small performining venues, aka Madison, WI, USA, losing our jobs to technology is old news that has, for the most part, gone unnoticed by our "big city" brothers in music. In the 1960s, '70s & '80s, I used to play for annual performances of Ringling Bros. Circus, Ice Capades and Holiday of Ice until the introduction of prerecorded sound tracks (made by studio musicians) took those local union jobs away. And most live weekend combo jobs have now been replaced by the disk jockey and his/her gig bag of CDs. Even our UW Varsity Marching Band is being periodically silenced by recorded music at our local Big Ten football games. Can you believe it??--A college marching band standing on the sidelines while pre recorded music plays over the loud speakers between quarters--yikes!!
What can really be done to curb the advances of tecnological music and save live musicians there jobs?? Unfortunately, unless some resolve is made between the economic and aesthetic issues both sides can argue for, I fear that the live musicians future will be similar that of the slide rule, learning the multiplication tables in grade school and the typewriter.
My grandfather (B. 1880s) used to fear that the new fangled horseless carriage would someday replace the horse.........he eventually learned to drive.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-22 18:17
Ken -
You say the producer moved the show to have an excuse to reduce the orchestra size.
Can you substantiate that statement? It doesn't say that in the articles I've read; or maybe I just haven't read them carefully enough.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-22 20:40
Pre-recorded music is a very different issue from VOs. With pre-recorded music, the economics shift away from the "local" musician and benefit the studio musician in LA/Chicago/Nashville/New York instead (assuming legally-mandated royalties are being paid). No question the audience experience suffers by having it in the can, but at least musicians are still being paid to make music somewhere in the chain. With VOs, artistry is completely out the window. You now transition the audience from listening to a very accomplished musician live or on tape to a lifeless synthetic performance model devoid of musicianship. It is just pitch, timbre, rhythm and dynamics -- no soul.
To continue the horseless carriage analogy, by the 1970s Americans had become tired of being taken for granted by the domestic auto manufacturers, and started to buy the less expensive, higher quality products from Japan. The analogy is this -- market forces will eventually take over, and people shelling out a lot of money for a theatre ticket are going to demand a better product than the poorly made processed-cheese-food performances they are being force-fed.
It is going to be ugly for a long time and cost many musicians their jobs, but eventually art will triumph over mediocrity. The business will be smaller than it is today, and will serve an audience that demands value for their investment of time and money.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2004-01-22 21:27
"Pre-recorded music is a very different issue from VOs. With pre-recorded music, the economics shift away from the "local" musician and benefit the studio musician in LA/Chicago/Nashville/New York instead (assuming legally-mandated royalties are being paid). "
Pardon my ignorance, but does that mean that when Disney on Ice plays our local venue, the musicians on the sound track recording used in the show are being paid the local's union scale for that performance?? If they are--good for them. If not, then I feel as if my former gig has been somehow stolen from me by my fellow union musicians accepting "less than scale" payments (royalties??) than the union scale payments I--the local sideman--would have received. If I am wrong about this issue, could someone with specific recording industry expertise please contribute?? Thanks.
BTW, I do completly sympathize with the main concerns of all regarding the VO replacing live musicians and support any effort that will keep live music where it should be.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-01-22 21:43
David -
The Scotsman story at http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2436388 says that Les Miz had been playing at a theater with a largish pit that could hold 22 musicians. That theater was being closed for repairs, and the producer moved the show to a small theater where the pit could hold only 10. He used this as an excuse for demanding electronic replacement.
I said that the producer wasn't forced to move to that particular theater and speculated that larger ones were probably available. If that's not so, I'm anxious to be corrected, but it seemed to me that the move to this particular theater was made so as to have an excuse to force the musicians to accept the electronics.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-22 23:07
Regardless of any motive ... I still think this is all based upon economics. It's sad and very bad for the honest musician.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-23 08:38
Diz - of course it is based on economics. This is commercial theatre.
Ken -
Several points to make here. There have been rumours for months that Les Mis would close. That suggests to me that ticket sales have fallen. I suspect that the choice was to move to a smaller theatre, or close. If that is the case, then this decision has _saved_ nine jobs.
Alternatively, let us suppose ticket sales are buoyant. Then the move to a smaller theatre is likely to prolong the life of the show. There will be only 9 jobs instead of 22, but those jobs will last longer.
Next point. Currently the Queens is housing a straight play. Once Les Mis moves, the Palace Theatre will close for renovations, and reopen with a brand-new musical. Presumably this new show will require a large band. If Les Mis is still running at the Queens, then there will be two musicals running where currently there is only one. Result: more jobs, not fewer.
Of course, I am sympathetic to professional musicians concerned for their livelihoods. I am also conscious that this may be the thin end of the wedge, and the Sinfonia may become a major threat. But I think it is better not to be too paranoid. Shows open, shows close, shows move, always have and always will.
----
A few years ago, I attended a very entertaining professional performance of Don Giovanni. The band was six players - so far as I remember, flute, clarinet, horn, violin, cello, keyboard.
Would you ban such performances because they put orchestral musicians out of work? Would you insist that Don Giovanni should only be performed in opera houses with proper pits, not in "off-West End" venues?
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-23 12:41
Every time you play a CD do you feel bad because that was a live performance opportunity in your home or at a party that was stolen from the Local? Of course the recording musicians aren't being paid your local union scale per "performance" or else there would be no incentive for the show producers to use the recording. Yes, local jobs are lost. Get in line at the unemployment office with the UAW, United Steelworkers, the animators guild and all the rest of our organized labor brethren that have lost jobs to globalization, technology and economics. We have a few choices -- go where the recording jobs are (NY, Nashville, LA, Chicago, etc.), find other gigs (clubs, weddings, bar mitzvahs, funerals and riots), or get out of the business. We can't survive on MPTF gigs alone, and we certainly can't survive on finger-wagging at other musicians.
The radio and the phonograph didn't kill off live performance, it just changed the business and created new and different opportunities. Who knows if we'll be so lucky this time around, but we can be certain that gigs in whatever form are not an entitlement. We are challenged as artists to find new ways to reach the public by being as much businesspeople and marketers as musicians.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ken
Date: 2004-01-23 22:15
Last Thanksgiving I took my family (wife, 3 boys, 19, 16, 11 y/o) to see "Guys and Dolls" at a playhouse in Ft. Lauderdale Fl. Although a local production and traveling cast, the production in my view was absolutely first rate and Broadway comparable in ALL areas of performance ... staging, scene design and lighting, acting, singing and dancing. The tickets were a poultry $25 per seat and the music predictably canned. Being a musician who knows better, the lack of live music and performing musicians was admitedly a constant irritant, but truthfully, the overall presentation was superb! Moreoever, with the reasonably-priced tickets I was able to afford a memorable family night out and expose my children to some "mandatory culture" without taking out a 2nd mortgage on the house.
I don't know, I've seen my share of musicals on Broadway between 70s-90s and undoubtedly nothing can replace (or should) the live music experience exactly as the writers-composers intended it. And, world-class musicians deserve an honest wage for their time and talent but from the audience end, on my salary and family of 4 the cut-down version was simply a better value. Sure, you get what you pay for and this ain't K*Mart but on this occasion my family was satisfyingly entertained without having to fork out $125 a pop for the great white way and living with the awful notion some career union doubler lost his 3rd gig for the day. v/r Ken
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-02-01 17:49
Do not underestimate the militancy and sheer bloody-mindedness of some of the trade unions in Britain. Some of these guys would go on strike if you changed the colour of their chairs without their permission.
That's probably all I should say to avoid being deleted by Mark C for being too political. It's all in the history books anyway.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-02-01 18:47
Thanks for your candid comments, David.
I'll forward them to our Musician's local here in NYC, with your permission.
Chair color sounds like a neat idea!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-02-03 04:31
Sorry to revive a slightly stale thread but my query is more closely related to this thread than the follow-up.
I saw a Broadway play a few weeks ago. It was a rather amazingly epic production and featured an original score, which was canned. While I was not surprised at this, it was still painful for my overly sensitive ears (especially because it was a very consciously period production and a great deal of the music struck me as anachronistic). I could live with it until the show's one song popped up, when suddenly it all seemed very fake. The sound quality was good and everything but there was just something weird about all this sound coming out of nowhere, particularly in the context of the staging. How common is this in plays? Do they ever use live musicians? Is it common for a play to have a score at all?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
