 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mikey
Date: 2004-01-13 12:43
I'm on the hunt for a new A. So far I haven't had any luck. Why is it that a good A is so much harder to find than a good Bb? Any advice would be appreciated. I'm a Buffet player. I'm looking for an R13, possibly Festival, Vintage, or Prestige. As long as it plays in tune and isn't stuffy, I'm happy
Mike~
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Author: SaraSoda
Date: 2004-01-13 13:14
i believe that a clarinets are so hard to find b/c they are really only used in an orchestral setting. i had to buy one a few years back for the orchestra that i am in and had to order it b/c i could not find one used. i suppose this is b/c only the people that are professionally using their a clarinets have them and have no reason to sell. the clarinet that i have is a buffet, but it is only an intermediate model.
[in the year 2000] when it is discovered that it takes exactly 437 licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop, it will be announced that science is officially over.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-13 15:02
"As long as it plays in tune and isn't stuffy, I'm happy"
Amen!!! (and good luck with your search--great Buffet A clarinets are hard to find.....and many of us are still constantly looking)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-01-13 15:35
Has anyone tried buying a non-great A clarinet and sending it to someone like the Brannens? Can one of these mediocre players turn into something great when the right touch is applied?
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-01-13 15:43
Save your money, and end your search with a hand-tuned Ridenour TR147.
They're not cheap (around $1000), but they aren't priced in the stratosphere, either.
Being Hard Rubber, they will tolerate more abuse than the lovely Buffet line you mention. They make a surprisingly good partner to the RC and R13.
Unless you play an A every day, you could be throwing away good money.
(And lots of it.)
******
I believe this topic has come up frequently, and a Search will reveal similar threads. The A clarinet in the R13 line has some design problems that may result in stuffy throat tones and some spread 12ths.
My favorite clarinet in A was a 58000 series R13 that the owner would not sell, at any price. It had been cracked and pinned 3 times... looked rough.
But OOooo what a sound!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-01-13 17:38
I play pretty much on Selmer Recitals
and own a set of Festival clarinets from Buffet bought in Belgium in the early 90s...
I am not happy with the stuffy sound of the R13s models as of late,
note the C below the clef is stuffy and somewhat unmovable pitch wise and you have the source of the problem.
However, that being said there are surely some R13 A clarinets that are fine, just need to look alot....and who has so many A R13 clarinets in stock to allow this...no body.
I prefer the darker sonority of the Recital Series Selmers...just a personal aspect...some players don't ....
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-13 22:17
Why limit yourself to Buffet??
Leblanc, Selmer and Yamaha also produce fine professional A clarinets ... as does Stephen Fox (Canada) and he's a sponsor of this board.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-14 15:00
"Has anyone tried buying a non-great A clarinet and sending it to someone like the Brannens? "
Yes--and they turned me down saying that my clarinet was "blown out" and couldn't be helped. The fact is that my Buffet R13A is a good instrument with a slightly stuffy long B and sharpness in the upper register, but it has definately not been played enough--over the years since I bought it, in 1964--to be classified as "swabbed to death" or "blown out" by any means. The Brannans were most likely trying to save me some money, but I wish they had not been so quick and rather "impersonal" in their evaluation of my instrument without even taking a look at it first. But what I found most interesting was that, by refusing to work on my clarinet, they passively admitted that there was nothing they could do accousitcally to correct its' stuffiness and tuning problems. Which leads me to think that most of the Brannanization reputation is based of cosmetic improvement--key action, pad height, etc--and not so much of accoustic work such as bore reconfiguration, undercutting or movement of tone holes (as George Jamison once suggested to me) and voicings of certain notes. Clarinets sent to the Brannens really do come back playing much better--for a variety of reasons--and they are good technicians, but by refusing to work on my "problem" (but I think, basically good R12), they themselves admit to not being the "miracle workers" that many clarinetists believe them to be.
So, the "bottom line" is that if you find a good--or even average--Buffet R13A--or any brand or model--clarinet, don't buy it with the hopes that the Brannens--or any other technician--will be able to make it into a great, or even good, instument. The only way to get a "good" one is to find one and not take the chance that an "average" one can be made good, much less great. Keep searching, and good luck.
BTW, I recently "rescued" a vintage Buffet R13 A from the shelves of a local high school where it was stored in a Selmer (broken zipper) double case with a Selmer Bb barrel. The instrument, with one of my Buffet barrels, is an absolute gem with a smooth right hand notes and a crystal clear long A. It hasn't been played for years and, as the school has undergone a number of new directors in the past ten years, the current director didn't even know it was in his bandroom. I am trying to negotiate a "deal" to give it a new home--mine!! You never know where "one of those" clarinets may pop up.
(where, GBK??--I'm not telling.....)
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-01-14 15:25
I'm sorry but it irratates me to bits when I see advice put on that may be "oh yeah well that's a possibility" but is really not in the best interest of the party inquiring. For someone who plays a buffet Bb clarinet it is not wise to advise them to play on something radically different from their clarinet such as a Leblanc Concerto or Opus or whatever misc brand. There are matching issues. Even if they do find a good clarinet that is of another make have you thought about each with work with a specific reed? I know from my own expierence that purchasing a different make counter part clarinet is the big mistake. I don't think any reputable professor play would advocate playing on different brand horns in one set up. If you are going to go leblanc, the get a Bb/A leblanc horn.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-01-14 17:52
Take your mouthpiece(s) to a store that has a good selection and spend a day or so playing on instruments to pick which one you like. The ICA convention, where all the makers will have exhibits is also a good place to start. Once you have some makers identified, go back to the store, or another with a bigger inventory, and play on all they will let you play on. If you find one that you like, buy it.
A clarinets are completely different animals. A's tend to have lots more internal resistance. I have troubles using my A for Klezmer music largely for this reason. For a while, I was using two completely different mpc/reed setups on my A & Bb, which really helped deal with a lot of problems. Keeping two reeds wet was another issue.
If someone offered me a matched set, I would tend to walk away. Buffet's R13 bores on Bb and A instruments are completely different, which is why they play differently. Other makers may not have made this same design choice.
My A is Brannenized, but that is besides the point. Their work should have minimal effect on intonation. They sometimes work on A register vents, but they chose not to for this instrument. That is pretty much all the mods they do as a matter of course. I stumbled into this instrument in the mid 1980's on a WW/BW list of used instruments, and it was a real stroke of luck, because it is really wonderful.
If you are really considering spending a pile of money on an instrument, look into Howarth's. Made in London, UK; you might be surprised.
Regards
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-14 18:46
Those who know and have worked with the Brannens recognize that they are not miracle workers -- they are artists, drawing the masterpiece out of the marble if you will. If the instrument does not have the intrinsic capacity to be great, they aren't going to spend their time and your money on it. As necessary, their work is far more than cosmetic, and does involve crafting and voicing sound and pitch to the player's need and taste.
As for older "unknown" instruments, they generally don't do them for several reasons, including having to redo or undo another technician's work, and/or spend a great deal of time rehabilitating rather than improving.
Mikey, Buffet USA is getting in new A stock at the end of the month supposedly, so now would be a good time to get with your dealer of choice.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-01-14 20:14
William, one other possibility about the Brannens. They told me they wouldn't work on Buffets (Bb or otherwise) under s/n 100XXX. They said it was about parts not being available. I'm also sure it depends on who is requesting the work. I didn't care for or appreciate their attitude either.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-14 20:29
LeOpus said:
"There are matching issues. Even if they do find a good clarinet that is of another make have you thought about each with work with a specific reed? I know from my own expierence that purchasing a different make counter part clarinet is the big mistake. I don't think any reputable professor play would advocate playing on different brand horns in one set up."
Where's your proof?
I know for a fact that my old clarinet teacher (who was principal with the Opera Orchestras in both Melbourne and Sydney) played on two different brand clarinets during her time. Then again, Australian clarinetists don't seem to be as brand obsessed as their American cousins. We tend to focus on the actual game of playing, funny that.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-01-15 00:21)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-15 00:17
William said:
> You never know where "one of those" clarinets may pop up.
> (where, GBK??--I'm not telling.....)
We all have our contacts and sources ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-15 01:04
Guy Chadash can do some acoustical things to help some of the common problems in the R13 A. As someone else suggested, it is not possible to make a great instrument out of one that is only mediocre, but it is possible to tweak a good instrument and make some real improvement. I would suggest trying out as many as you can. If you cannot get hold of many in your area, maybe see if Phil Muncy can pick a few good ones for you to try.
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2004-01-15 02:03
I'm with LeOpus on the pairing thing-
In well designed instruments, the register-to-register tuning compromises of a particular model tend to be similar in Bb and A.
And it's really good to be able to use the same throat note vent and resonance fingerings on both instruments, particularly if you play a lot of 2nd clarinet!
K
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-01-15 03:10
Diz -
No offense but the clarinet wold in the united states is much larger and with larger numbers we tend to draw out more outstanding artists (basic statistics). My proof is the accomplished players that have told me this and have guided me. I bet the Major five principals know a little bit more about clarinet than you would. When you become one of those players in the orchestra then perhaps your opinion will compare to theirs but I until then perhaps you should go with flow.
It's not so bright advice liek that our even younger high school students may take and get an instrument that they regret. I know because I have done so many years back. I have also learned that people will embrace something just because other people don't.
Thats all.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-01-15 06:54
Every new wooden instrument I've seen has chips in the tone holes, indentations on the edge which contacts the pad. These tiny, distributed leaks cause an instrument to play poorer than it should. They can be found by taking keys off and looking at the pad seats with a magnifier. They can be removed by sanding carefully with a special tool.
My new A Buffet R13 had some of these and also had a loose register tube, possibly from wood shrinkage. Don't expect any new clarinet from the factory to play its best unless it has been checked and fixed. They do not have time in the factory to get them all working properly.
Some fine clarinets come from the factory with single skin, leaky pads. These should be replaced.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-15 07:35
"Australian clarinetists don't seem to be as brand obsessed as their American cousins. We tend to focus on the actual game of playing, funny that"
I don't believe that for one second. What about what went on when I was choosing new instruments and decided on Leblanc? Remember?
Was your old teacher Kate Stockwin by any chance?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-15 13:16
"In well designed instruments, the register-to-register tuning compromises of a particular model tend to be similar in Bb and A."
In theory, maybe, but the R13A often plays like a completely different animal than the Bb counterpart. The feel and general tuning tendencies are often very different. This is why I have known some who have gone with an RC or Festival or other model Buffet . I have even known of players who have gone to a Yamaha A because the design is very much like the Buffet, and they have found it to be a good match.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-16 07:45
As I do not play an A Clarinet, I've had nothing to say, I may not know much about the selection of an A Clarinet, but I do know a few things about acoustics and people....
An A-pitch Clarinet could not possibly "play" the same as its Bb-pitch counterpart unless its dimensions, every last one of them -- bore, length, hole separation, hole diameter, amount of fraising, etc. -- had precise proportional increases over those of the Bb Clarinet by the twelfth root of two, And this absolutely does not happen.
So if you consider the whole big picture based on technical considerations, getting A and Bb instruments that play the same (or even close) has to be a crapshoot, no matter what brand(s). .
One more time, this leans into the problem of accepting at face value the reasons given by experts (and others) as to why they buy the things they buy. We all like to think we know why we select our purchases, but rarely do people truly understand the reasons for their own preferences. Reasons given by buyers may sound completely reasonable yet be far from accurate. For example, purchases may be made by buyers because to do so is a logical decision (so they may say), when in reality they wish others to perceive them as being logical.
Why are specific purchases made? Determining why people make those decisions costs major companies billions each year, so they can learn how to influence the decisions. Wow, those companies could sure save a lot of money if all they had to do is ask five top experts. But they don't do that, simply because it would not work. This has been known to psychologists for over fifty years.
Regards,
John
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-16 10:49
I remember a while back someone stating that the an A clarinet is often more resistant to play. I think they meant more "backpressure" as you play. And that sometimes people are put off by this.
They then also mentioned not to be put off by it because it's simple to adjust to, and that many people end up preferring a bit more resistance.
So I guess my two cents is not to be put off if it isn't as "free-blowing" as your Bb. In my opinion, I like a clarinet with a little more resistance because it seems to give me a little more control over the dynamics.
Just wanted to point that out.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Eppy
Date: 2004-01-17 01:54
Mikey,
If a Buffet is truly what you want as your A, you might want to check out an RC model instead of an R-13. You will find that they don't have quite the reputation as being "stuffy" as the R-13 A's. I find them to blow freer and easier. JMHO. Don't limit yourself to the R-13 because that is what your Bb is.
Try several and see what you come up with. It is true that you never know what you might find.
Is ALL that we see or seem but a dream within a dream?
Edgar Allan Poe
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-17 15:01
"Try several and see what you come up with. It is true that you never know what you might find."
And that's the truth!! The only way to determine any clarinets value is not by reputation, brand or model, but to actually play it. And with A clarinets, it may take playing quite a few before you find one that meets your expectations and need.
As for matched sets, my orchestral collegue plays on a Yamaha A clarinet that has a crack halfway down the upper joint. She bought it from a clarinetist in a major USA symphony orchestra and it plays and sounds great. In fact, she is now trying to find a Buffet Bb that plays as well as her Yamaha A. Bottom line--your Bb and A (or Eb, C, D or Bass) do not have to be matching brand name models. They can be any manufacturers product as long as they play well. And you find that out by trying them before you buy them.
Picking out new clarinets is a very "trying" experiance..............
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Author: bulldoggy1
Date: 2004-01-17 22:55
I have been playing a Selmer Center-Tone Bb clarinet for over 40 years. In the last year I purchased a matching Selmer Center-Tone A clarinet. Thjey both are lovely instruments. My A clarinet sounds a bit darker and plays with a tad more resistance than the Bb, but that is fine with me I use the same moutpiece and reed for both. Recently, I have been trying Legere composite reeds and have pretty well settled on strength 2 3/4. They are really great reeds. Since no wetting is required it is a snap to switch mouthpieces between the Bb and A clarinets.
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Author: Jeanette
Date: 2004-01-18 03:58
I have a Buffet R13 A that yes did play horribly stuffy. I love Buffets so I had to have this one which I happened to get quite cheap and I found that useing a 660 barrel instead of the generic one it comes with cures the stuffiness and makes the once choppy large interval jumps (8va's 12th's etc) quite smooth
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Author: Mikey
Date: 2004-01-18 13:34
Thank you all for your input and advice. I went down to Muncy Winds on Friday and found a new horn. I tried about fifteen, regular R-13s, Festivals, Prestiges, and Vintages. The one I ended up getting--a standard R-13 with silver keys--was the third one I tried. It is extremely responsive and has a very smooth, covered sound. It had one or two stuffy notes, though, and the high B and C were a little sharp for my taste--but what a sound. Phil Muncy worked wonders. He shortened the register tube, which immediately eliminated the stuffy notes, without affecting the overall sound or pitch. Then I tried one of his custom barrels and it fixed the pitch issues. I am very pleased with it. I've never played on an A-clarinet that is so free blowing. Going back and forth between it and my Bb is very easy now. I definitely recommend Muncy. Phil and Pam are the nicest people.
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Author: chicagoclar
Date: 2004-01-18 23:29
I play on a matched set (it was a total fluke) The Bb (R13) is mine and the A is my schools. They are about 1500 apart in serial numbers and they play totally different. The intonation is also completely different and I find that often times I have to use different fingerings on the A than the Bb. My counter part from last year played a Leblanc Concerto and used the schools R13 A, and had no problems in his playing. I say just find what works for you. Good luck!!!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-18 23:41
chicagoclar wrote:
> I play on a matched set (it was a total fluke) The Bb (R13) is
> mine and the A is my schools.
For the final time, there is no such thing as a "matched set".
Matched to what?
Do you think they are "matched" because their serial numbers are in close proximity. That's as riduculous as saying the house next to yours is "matched" because the addresses are only different by 2 numbers.
Theoretically, all R-13 Bb's should be identical and R13 A's should be as well, but we know that quality control of massed produced clarinets make that an impossibility, and it is unrealistic to expect.
The only thing "matched" about a matched pair is that they are in the same case ...GBK
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-01-19 00:09
Well . . . maybe a matched set could exist. Perhaps among Eatons or Rossis, a set could be ordered to be as "matched" as possible. Even among production line clarinets, perhaps a Moennig might have taken a Bb and an A and "matched" them as far as tuning and playing characteristics are concerned. But I certainly agree in principle . . . close numbers don't mean too much - especially comparing a Bb to an A.
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