 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sherrietanner
Date: 2004-01-14 20:07
Hello, I posted this question within my other post (If you could have any Bb Clarinet..), and I don't think it was seen by many. So here goes, I have read on past posts that the newer horns made of Grenadilla are not quite the same as the older...Huh? In what respect? Is the wood on the Selmer BT that much different than the Signature? Does it greatly effect the tone and life of the instrument? I'm also interested in the "cutoff point", when did the changes start? How many years ago did the makers start using young wood? I also learned in my old post reading that you have a man of science aboard, the doctor, is the doctor in the house? I bet you know the answers! Must run, all this extra writing makes me hungry..
Sherrie
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-14 21:21
This has been a gradually emerging situation as the oldest and best of the blackwood is harvested, and as the forests in Africa are rolled back for development, farming, etc. There doesn't seem to be a hard "cutoff point" as you ask, except maybe for a move Yamaha made to secure their own supply several years ago that may have impacted access by other companies.
There are plenty of really wonderful new instruments being made in league with the days of yore, so nobody is ringing the alarm bells. Sentiment seems to be that the greener instruments might not "live" as long as the vintage horns, but we are going to have to wait a couple decades to prove that assertion out.
If you want the unvarnished (there's a pun in there somewhere, I just didn't quite find it) truth, contact somebody like Linda Brannen through the Brannen Woodwind website. There are also a lot of instrument techs who post to this board who can enlighten you based on the countless horns they've seen.
Happy hunting.
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Author: sherrietanner
Date: 2004-01-16 01:10
Hello Mark, Thank you for your help, it seems no one else on the forum cares about this subject! I will take your advice and check with Linda Brannen. I've read that the Brannen people are among the best in Clarinet restoration and repair. One day I hope to use their services! My best,
Sherrie
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-16 04:52
".......it seems no one else on the forum cares about this subject...."
Have you considered that you asked for specific specialist information that the rest of us just do not have?
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Author: sherrietanner
Date: 2004-01-16 05:28
Hello Gordon, I guess you're right, but this forum is chock full of really smart people and I thought some others might add to my knowledge. I was hoping to hear from "the doctor", but maybe it's out of his purview too. Thank you for clearing this up for me... Sincerely,
Sherrie
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-16 07:53
Sherrie, if you search the BB archive for something like blackwood, you will find that this problem has been recognized by some builders to such an extent they are now using alternative wood.
I surfed around for hours late one night looking at links on wood from this BB. However, whether new wood is better than old wood is not a question answered there, nor of course will any maker confess to an inferior current process compared to any older one.
Sure, we're interested. We're just ignorant.
Regards,
John
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-16 11:05
I'm interested too. In regards to the Doctor, you could always email him. But be warned that he has a major project on his hands and is very busy (I asked for a special wood treatment and he said he wouldn't be able to help me for a few months until his project is off the ground). Right now he's only working on that, and filling his normal orders.
I do know that other materials are being used and tried. Buffet has introduced the "Greenline" series which makes use of much of the waste of a block of Grenadilla that was used to make a clarinet. They use the 95% of the scraps, 5% resin (I believe it's resin) compressed under tons of pressure to produce a new composite material. It also saves scrapwood and there's really no compromise in sound. A batch of greenline R13s will have the same variety of sounds as a batch of regular R13s.
I know that Amati has produced a clarinet using Mopani wood. It's another very hard wood. I played one and found it very very good. I really enjoyed playing it and although I did find a SLIGHT difference in tone between that and other clarinets I've tried, I can't say it's because of the wood (it might have been because of the barrel.)
And Rosewood is being used in many clarinets. It is said to have a much "sweeter" tone but is also a popular choice (Patricola, Rossi, and a few others use it.)
Cocobola is offerred for many barrels, and I know Stephen Fox (sponsor) offers to make a clarinet out of it if you would like. Boxwood is also used (however many say it's great for chamber music, but not to be used on an everyday, heavy use basis).
Delrin is a popular synthetic material.
I think the fact that there are all these alternatives and that makers are now experimenting with different alternatives is "proof" that, yes, good quality grenadilla is getting harder and harder to find. I don't really know the answers to the other questions, but I do know that clarinets are dyed to help hide slight imperfections in the wood (different colorations).
Hope you get more responses. I'm a little curious as to how the wood between an old horn and new horn might differ myself. I think I heard something about clarinets being dyed to hide imperfections in the wood (colorations) and that this wasn't the case in ages past, but let's wait for someone more knowledgeable than I to confirm that one.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-16 13:39
Sherri...perhaps you're too used to expecting instant gratification. Some of us are not on the BB 24 hours a day. The fact that you asked the question(s) you did would seem to infer that you think there are factual answers available. For openers try searching on "grenadilla wood" and you will find that all wood clarinets are not have not been made from it. Exactly what each manufacturer's policies and situations are with respect to availability and cure procecure are probably hard to determine. What we are left with is what we hear from outside sources. Your questions are difficult to respond to.....as you expect. But...we do care.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-16 14:58
I have read in many of our "good books with Clarinet in the title" [Rendall, Brymer, Lawson. Pino, Groves Dict., Al Rice's recent books, etc] about the desireable characteristics, types, availability, aging, machining etc/etc of the various woods used in our inst's history. The "stories" are quite similar IMHO, to the discussions about furniture woods that are frequently given on the PBS Antiques Roadshow. Not long back, I found, read and posted here about it, a very informative discussion of "Properties of Imported Tropical Woods", a USDA Forest Service Research Paper, FPL 125, March 1970 !, which excellently portrays the various dense, hard-but-machinable varieties used for "wood"winds after the "boxwood" era. The info is available, perhaps hard to find. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-16 16:39
A bit of patent searching on USPTO will find a few references using Clarinet OR woodwind AND grenadilla OR rosewood et al. A late 1990's pat, US 5,686,680 and its cited references describes a ground wood mixed with resins for making cl bodies, "Greenline"?? Al Rice in "The Clarinet in the Classical Period" discusses [with many references] these woods. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sherrietanner
Date: 2004-01-16 16:43
Hello Bob, Yes, I'm from the "fast-food" generation, but I have a great respect for the past. I do have much time on my hands because of my work. The above replies prove my contention that this forum is populated with really smart people and I thank you all. I will do my homework Don and Alexi wonderful information, I think I'll wait till the doctor gets out of the lab, don't want to disturb him! As for you John, "ignorant" , I've read many of your postings...you're one smart guy! Now it's time to confess, my new Clarinet instructor has quite a few older Selmers, from RT's to the Series 9 & 10G + Buffets from the 20's-60's. I'm in the market for a brand spanking new horn, but I have a chance (up the road) to purchase a few of these gems...hence the Grenadilla question! She plans to donate most of her collection to her conservatoire, yep that's how she refers to her old music school. I want to choose the right older Clarinet(s) from her offerings, ahead of when she'll part with them. My Selmer CT years were wonderful, there is just something about the workmanship of years gone by that attract me. Speaking of fast-food, time to eat...again! My Best,
Sherrie
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-16 17:37
Sherrie: Thanks for your kind comment. But on this subject, I'm ignorant. Not stupid, you understand. Ignorant is curable; stupid is forever.
Regarding Buffets: there is a fellow who hangs around here, identifying himself only with three initials. He has encyclopedic knowledge of which older Buffets are the ones to acquire for playing. If he pipes in, I'm sure he could offer some guidance.
Regards,
John
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-01-16 18:05
The SEARCH function at the top of this BBS will reveal scads on this.
I play on a tremendous instrument that was made from hard rubber, so I'm not remotely concerned about the dearth of this species at the lumber yard.
There are modern makers getting great results from other hardwoods.
I wonder if the early adopters of Boxwood clarinets decried the sound of new-fangled Grenadilla instruments?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-16 20:11
Sherrie .... All of my R-13's are in the 20 year span between 1965 and 1985. I have tried many of the newer R-13's and some were quite nice, some were mediocre (or worse) but never found one which I felt played better than the ones I currently have.
Of course, to be fair, the new clarinets I tried did not have as extensive work done as my current ones.
A number of clarinetists think that some of Buffet's finest clarinets were made in the mid 1960's to early 1970's. I happen to agree.
A visual inspection of the wood used in these clarinets seems (to me) to be very tightly grained with few (if any) flaws.
I also happen to agree with msloss in that there are some fine clarinets being made today, but it is too early to tell if the less seasoned wood currently being used will stand the test of time.
Although certainly not a guarantee against cracking or failure, the best advice is to visually inspect the wood (on the surface and in the bore) for any inherent defects.
Then, face the East and chant three times each day:
"All roads lead to Mozambique" ...GBK
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-16 23:04
(R13) >>"85,000-110,000 very flexible, but twelfths are wide
111,000-224,000 great sound especially around 145,000. Tuning parameters better. C#/G# key spring changed to needle spring from flat spring".<< Clark Fobes
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2004-01-18 18:50
I think only those actively buying, selling, and using African Blackwood can really answer this question.
I can tell you that I have inspected some new clarinets from the major manufacturers where the wood appeared to me to be greatly inferior to that which was routinely in the past.
On one professional model clarinet I looked at recently, the wood was very thick grained, looking more like plywood than instrument grade material. The instrument did play well however.
This suggests that the supply of wood is being depleted far faster than it is being replaced, which is what we have been hearing for years.
I'm not too worried, more manufacturers need to explore materials like the "greenline" material that Buffet makes. My oboe friends tell me that many fine players actually prefer that material for their oboes.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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