 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-01-14 13:53
I play a Leblanc LL that was recently overhauled. A B40 mouthpiece with V12 3.5 reeds. Pitch is driving me crazy! I have to really work hard to keep the pitch up to A440. I can do it but when the players around me start to raise in pitch it causses lots of trouble. What can I do to bring my pitch up?
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-14 14:07
Try using a shorter barrel that will allow your clarinet to be "in tune", at A=440, while still cold. As you play, and your clarinet warms up, gradually pull your barrel to maintain the 440 pitch.
As for your fellow players, they also need to pull out to avoid going sharp. Good intonation (in ensembles) is a result of good listening and good cooperation with each others tuning efforts.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-14 16:27
Which B40 precisely?
As I reported in a recent thread, I found that a "13 series, American pitch" 5RVL was flat to A=440, and out of tune with itself, on all the instruments I recently play-tested, though it works fine on my plastic Yamaha. A shorter barrel would have brought the pitch up, of course, but I'm not convinced it would have solved the tuning issues.
Is your B40 a 13 series?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-01-14 17:20
Tongue position can have a big effect on pitch. Some teachers work on this and some don't. Unfortunately for me, mine didn't, and I have the same problem. Short barrels can help, but have someone else, especially your teacher, play your clarinet and see if they have the same problem.
As it has been explained to me, your tongue should be "high", which will push the air stream against the roof of your mouth. This controlled windway will help in tone production and intonation. Then experiment taking in more or less mouthpiece. You may be surprised at the results.
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Author: studioline
Date: 2004-01-14 18:48
David Peacham wrote
"As I reported in a recent thread, I found that a "13 series, American pitch" 5RVL was flat to A=440, and out of tune with itself"
Although I don't play on a 5RVL I do play on a B40 13 series and have had no trouble with flatness to A=440 and seems to me to be as in tune with it self as can reasonably be expected. I have tried and tested quite a few of these and have owned 2. For me, these work better intonation wise than a traditional B40, which was the reason for me swapping.
Sinkdrain, (curious name!) is it flat throughout or more so in just the altissimo register. If so, perhaps if you think when you play the notes you are coming from above instead of reaching up to the notes. Also if you think of blowing a sweet sound "eeeee" this may also help.
If this fails and Ralph's advice doesn't help, you could always experiment with other mouthpieces and barrels. I think if you get your teacher to test it too to find out if the same flatness applies.
I think mouthpieces are bound to vary according to who's playing it, and what suits one won't suit another.
I have quite a few different mouthpieces, and as I play on a B40 like yourself, maybe you might want to think about trying a morgan RM15. As a B40 player I quite liked this mouthpiece, for me it was definitely more of a focussed sound and HUGE! Pitch wise, it really brought the pitch up. They are expensive but you might be able to get one of Ebay at a reasonable price which is what I did.
Also, a Walter Grabner mouthpiece is very nice, and for me also brought the pitch up.
Otherwise just try a shorter barrel, though this may affect the throat notes more than any where else.
Hope this helps!
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-01-15 01:31
Thank you for all your advice! I do not have a teacher at the moment. I am a sax player who doubles on clarinet. I play in a local symphony to keep my chops up. I really like the tone from the B40 and hope that is not the problem. Studioline, do you prefer the B40 to the morgan? I have a RM28 and I just dont like it as much as the B40. I play a Morgan on alto sax and it is amazing. The RM28 is way too open. I am going to try using faster air with my tongue closer to the roof as you suggested. The intonation is very even throughout the horn. The LL is almost perfect in that regard- the only problem is I lean just a little flat on the entire horn.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2004-01-15 01:52
SinkdraiN,
I know someone who has the same problem with his 1962 model LL.
I'm convinced that he needs a shorter barrel.
He bought the horn new in 1962 and sez that it still works so why should he spend money on a new barrel. In his case, I quess you can't always teach an old dog new tricks.
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Author: studioline
Date: 2004-01-15 11:26
Sinkdrain said
"Studioline, do you prefer the B40 to the morgan? I have a RM28 and I just dont like it as much as the B40."
I haven't really given the morgan enough of a chance to compare with my B40 but as a B40 player it felt comfortable to me. The volume capabilities were huge but this wasn't because it was very open. For me it seemed to have a similar resistance to the B40 which is what I like. The sound was focussed and I think would be particularly good for orchestral playing, and as I said it certainly brought the pitch up quite significantly, though this may be just the case for this particular mouthpiece!
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-01-15 13:27
Swap instruments with fellow players and check intonation. That will tell you whether the problem is the instrument or its player. If the problem is you, you will need a very good teacher to help clear this up.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-15 14:40
"try a shorter barrel, though this may affect the throat notes more than any where else."
Wrong!! If you are playing correctly, the shorter barrel--or pulling it--should affect all notes equally.
As for the tuning process, tune your open "throat" G first--if sharp (normal), pull your barrel joint. Then check G5 through D5, if still sharp, pull the middle joint a bit. Then check B4 (long B) and C5. If those notes are still sharp, pull the bell joint a bit. Keep rechecking until all registers are as close as possible. Note--your clarinet will never be in perfect tune with itself, but it can be made close. The rest is up to your ear and embouchure.
As your primary instrument is the saxohone--tenor??--you are most likely playing with too loose a embouchure for the clarinet, and therefore playing "flat". To adequately acquire a firm clarinet embouchure, you will need to make the clarinet your primary instrument for the next few years and consider the sax your "secondary". Otherwise, you will always remain a "sax player who also plays the clarinet", continuing to use a "sax" embouchure--which is too loose for clarinet--and playing under pitch. And, you will definately need a shorter barrel to comphensate. Good luck!!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-01-15 22:11
William wrote: "If you are playing correctly, the shorter barrel--or pulling it--should affect all notes equally."
RUBBISH! Changing the barrel length will definitely affect the throat notes more than the other notes. It's mathematical. The "longer" the tube length, the lower the note. If you took a note that was produced by covering all the holes until 5 cm down from the barrel and pulled out 0.5cm, the tube length would be 10% longer. If you took a note produced by covering all the holes until 20cm from the barrel, the tube length would only be 2.5% longer. Therefore the shorter note would be much more affected by pulling out at the barrel.
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Author: studioline
Date: 2004-01-15 23:02
I was about to write a similar thing Liqourice after William's dismissive "wrong.....etc" but then read your post!
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2004-01-16 04:25
I didn't read much of the previous posts, so excuse me of someone already mentioned this- but could it possibly be a bad bore match?
My friend just bought a pair of Signatures- which are marketed as a "true A=440" clarinet, one of the few. She also bought a Richard Hawkins DC1 (Davie Cane Model) before she got the Signatures, and when she got them she was constantly flat when playing her Bb. Mr. Shapiro must've realized that the mouthpiece was a bad match to the bore of the Signature, because she went back to him about something else and then changed her mouthpiece as well for another DC1, and she's a lot more in tune now.
Bradley
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-01-16 18:46
This is all great information. Im glad there is a site like this. William mentioned that as a sax player I may be using a loose embouchure. That could be true. I'm nervous about changing my barrel for a number of reasons: I like the tone of my stock barrel (I also have a click barrel, and several deg barrels), I dont want a barrel to make up for an incorrect embouchure if thats the case. I'd rather make the stock one work. Am I wrong in thinking that the original Leblanc LL barrel should work fine. Across the horn its perfectly in tune with itself its just a "tick" low.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-16 23:28
1. Make sure that your mouthpiece is not a B40-13 series. If that's the case get regular B40 which is pitched @442HZ.
2. Just by switching to a mouthpiece with medium-close facing can bring your pitch up. Try 1.10mm tip opening.
Short/close facings tend to play sharp. Long/open facings tend to play low.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-01-17 17:17
Notes from Francois Kloc:
A barrel with a section larger than the top of your upper joint bore will make the low register flatter and raise certain notes of the upper register. A barrel with a section smaller than the top of your upper joint bore will raise the low register and make certain notes of the upper register flatter. To raise or lower the entire pitch of the clarinet, as you know, you can pull the barrel or use one shorter or longer.
A small bore mouthpiece will make the low register and the throat notes (Ab and Bb) sharper. That make the high register flatter with less volume. A mouthpiece with a larger bore diameter will make the low register and the throat notes (Ab and Bb) flatter and make the upper range sharper with more volume. Taking one tenth of a millimeter from the mouthpiece bore diameter is like taking one millimeter from the length of the clarinet.
jbutler
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