 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-01-11 00:24
I have a new Buffet R-13 that I bought about 10 days ago. I've been playing on it every day for only about 10-20 minutes to "break it in" and get used to it and such. It sounds wonderful and I love the feel of it and everything (aside from some flatness, which may be the instrument). However, I can clearly see that the joint ends, mostly on the upper joint, are swollen a little. This makes it more difficult to put the instrument together and then even more difficult to take it apart. So, since I discovered this I have not been putting it completely together so that I can get it apart a little easier. The reason I am posting this (I did search on this topic already) is because my friend had his clarinet sanded or something he said, and it still is fine. But I've heard that sanding it is not the way to go. What can I or a repair man do about this problem? Does it go away with time? Affected by temperature? I have no idea. Please fill me in. Thank you.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-01-11 00:35
I had the same problem---I strongly suggest a tech adjust your instrument. The problem should be easily remedied!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-11 00:41
There are various ways to do it. Some timber must be removed without over-doing it or messing it up.
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Author: Melissa
Date: 2004-01-11 01:01
Your instrument may be playing flat because of, and I quote, "...since I discovered this I have not been putting it completely together so that I can get it apart a little easier"
Melissa
Just my 2 cents.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-01-11 03:28
Have you considered that maybe it's the corks and not the wood? I've bought 2 new clarinets so far (first a Yamaha Allegro, next an R-13), and on both the corks seemed too big when I first got the instruments. I just applied cork-grease liberally and in a little while (probably a few weeks), the corks seemed to shrink or get compressed enough to make assembling/disassembling the instrument easier. Is the actual work on the joint too big, or is it possible the new cork?
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: ChrisC
Date: 2004-01-11 03:34
Given the time of year, I suspect that it's a manufacturing defect rather than a result of weather conditions. Either take it back to the dealer to have the problem corrected, or, if it's more convenient, to an independent repair person. It should not be a lengthy or expensive repair. In any case your only option really is to have a qualified technician do the work; if you don't know of one it would be a good idea to find one in area since you going to need to know one in order to keep your instrument in playing condition in the long run.
I think that's the best possible advice. It's obviously a minor, correctable problem but you still need someone to fix it for you.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-01-11 04:10
This seems to be a common R13 problem judging by posts to this board. I've had it myself. The fact that not pushing the joints together avoids the sticking seems to be an indication that the problem indeed is with the inner wood shoulder NEXT to the cork, and no amount of grease will fix that.
Assuming you are in the US or other place experiencing winter now, this could only get worse in more humid weather next summer. Take the horn back to the dealer and get it fixed, the warranty will cover it. Perhaps if Buffet has enough warranty claims, they will fix this problem.
Don't let this very minor problem keep you from enjoying your new instrument!
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-12 12:29
This is not a quality-control problem at Buffet, particularly in the US. Francois Kloc would not let an instrument out the front door that couldn't be assembled. Time and time again on this Bboard this matter has been discussed, and it generally comes down to the same conclusion. The instrument is made out of a (formerly) living material which is dimensionally unstable under changing environmental conditions. This is particularly true in recent years as the wood is not as well seasoned as it once was. Going from the factory to a distribution center to a music store to your home will have some effect on the instrument. Go to a master technician to make the adjustment if it is needed. He or she will make sure that the tenons and sockets are dimensioned properly.
And Buffet HAS addressed this "problem" for those who do not want to be subject to the vagueries of all-natural materials -- the Greenline.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-12 12:56
"This is not a quality-control problem at Buffet, particularly in the US......The instrument is made out of a (formerly) living material which is dimensionally unstable under changing environmental conditions. This is particularly true in recent years as the wood is not as well seasoned as it once was."
Isn't this statement internally inconsistent? Sounds like a QC problem to ME!
Henry
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-12 13:30
....but, it is a quality control problem! Q.C. doesn't end with shipment out the factory door. I also had the same problem a couple of years ago and declined to purchase the horn when the President of the company brushed off my complaint.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-12 14:11
Totally disagree. If you understand the nature of the product, you understand the intrinsic variability in this aspect of its performance, and accept that as part of the bargain. If you do not, then there are non-organic options (plastic, Greenline, etc.). There are simply too many environmental variables for the maker to ensure perfect fit for every user in every environment globally. What they can do is provide a product that meets a factory spec, and is made in such a way that a technician can make adjustments to suit the individual's situation.
While I would agree there is some culpability where the seasoning of the wood is concerned, I cannot totally fault Buffet or any other pro manufacturer because it is reflective of the world supply for an endangered African hardwood.
If you've cracked the code and found an all-Grenadilla professional instrument that is completely stable and consistent at all temperatures, altitudes and humidity levels, our lives are all about to get a lot better.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-12 14:35
msloss...It's good to hear that you at least partially agree and not "totally disagree".
Henry
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-12 16:25
I agree with those who would say that seasoning is a contributing factor to the frequency and magnitude of dimensional issues. The manufacturers make an economic choice based on the poor grenadilla supply that they will be less selective about wood and season it for less time because that is the only way to keep the product on the market at a reasonable price and with good availability. Buffet makes this choice, and as a consequence it is reasonable that they provide warranted adjustments and repairs for wood-related problems (binding, cracking). They are in fact quite generous in this respect since problems can come as much if not more from poor treatment of the instrument, which by the way I am not implying Bigno16 has done.
I do not however agree at all (which would mean "totally disagree") that it is a quality control issue. Poor QC implies they are not taking care to meet their factory spec, or that the factory spec is so loose as to allow wide variation in the final product. Neither is the case in my experience with Buffet (and Selmer for that matter). While there is subtle variability in how the instruments play to the discerning clarinetist, there is very little variability in fit and finish of critical areas like tenon-socket connections. In the United States they leave Los Angeles under Francois' supervision ready to assemble.
If you want to be uncompromising, put yourself on the list for Guy Chadash's instruments, and prepare to pay up big and wait a long time. Even then, I would be willing to bet if you take one of his horns from New York to Tucscon, things are going to change.
And you'll have to excuse me for my apparent "internal inconsistency". I made the erroneous assumption that the readership was up to speed on the wood supply issue and could separate the decision to keep the clarinets in supply and at a reasonable price from sloppy craftsmanship.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-12 17:36
msloss...I just wonder why a decision to shorten the seasoning period of one's starting material is NOT a QC issue, whether or not it is related to (or demanded by) the raw material supply? I'm not disputing that such a course may be economically attractive (or even mandated) or that their tolerances in the final product have been strictly maintained. The point is that the quality of the final product is being compromised.
I think we actually agree that shortening the seasoning of Grenadilla wood can lead to subsequent problems, and I don't single out Buffet for resorting to such "short cuts". The problem is evident all over.
Henry
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-13 15:28
So, it's not a Q.C. issue because Buffet has lowered their standards. Quality is built in not inspected in. If the horns were built properly Francois wouldn't have to inspect them.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-14 13:26
It is not a QC issue because the product is specified and built to a price point -- ~ $2000 US. And, if you go all-out and pay someone like Brannen to customize the horn to your specs, add another $500. $2,500 for an orchestra-ready professional instrument is astonishingly cheap. That is extraordinary value -- Just lean over and ask your flute or oboe buddies how much they paid.
In the price, Buffet (and all the others) even warrant the product for 1 - 3 years against the problems being complained about here, up to and including replacing rather than just fixing parts that fail. So, for $2,500 I can have a fully customized professional concert instrument at a mass-produced price with a product guarantee behind it. And at that price, the compromise I am asked to make is that there is the potential for inconvenience if I have to take the instrument back for a tweak because my practice room or concert hall is more humid than the factory. WJK had it right from the beginning.
BobD, if you want to take potshots at Buffet, at least take them directly: francois.kloc@musicgroup.com. And if you have found an instrument of the same price and quality that is perfect right out of the shrinkwrap and has zero risk of dimensional problems, please let us know because that will save us all a lot of money and aggravation and put all of our esteemed technician colleagues out of business.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-14 13:35
I'm not taking potshots at Buffet, it's part of a discussion that you brought up.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-14 14:34
"If the horns were built properly, Francois wouldn't have to inspect them."
Okee dokey.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-14 16:47
"Puke...baloney...stupid...brainless...pee".
Amazing what "swollen" passions a simple discussion can lead to.
I think we are well past the point of diminishing returns!
Henry
Post Edited (2004-01-14 17:05)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-14 21:28
Well, we are getting low in this thread!
In New Zealand there are NOT "....so freaking many of them sold compared to the 'other brands."
There is quite a good balance of makes. And I would say that Buffet definitely has its fair share of problems of design/manufacture/QC. Perhaps the worst ones are dumped in NZ, but that simply illustrates the point.
One does not further rational discusion by presenting one's views as if they were part of a fundamentalist religion!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-15 00:25
After living in the same house for 25 years, many of the doors still shrink and swell as the seasons change.
Go and get a little wood relieved from the tenon of your clarinet and let's move on...GBK
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2004-01-15 04:24
>>Totally disagree. If you understand the nature of the product, you understand the intrinsic >>
I totally disagree with "msloss" and "Someone who knows" and agree with the QC issue.
A tenon cap would have fixed the problem but they decided it would be too costly to include in a 2000.00 clarinet. Give me a break! I would think twice before I removed wood from one of my clarinets. Make sure it is really needed first.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-15 05:13
In New Zealand it IS needed on almost every new Buffet and Selmer, at least once.
Yamahas, Peter Eatons, and Howarth seem to fare a bit better.
The makes/models with caps installed at manufacture are fine. Selmers seem to have caps fitted in a rather random manner. I have sometimes wondered if this is to cover blemishes. ON the other hand, if other Selmer QC irregularities are anything to go by, it could just be the luck of the draw, as is whether you get real or artifical tenon corks.
Do any of the old-timers in this forum remember and know whether it was always like this?
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-01-15 12:36
Well, I'll flog the horse once more and let it go. Tenon caps do not completely mitigate the problem unless you've got non-wood tenon sockets to which they are mated. As long as you have wood-on-something, you are subject to the behavior of the wood.
Clarence -- you put us in something of a logical loop here. "Someone who knows" said he totally agrees with everyone who totally disagrees. So by totally disagreeing with him, he now totally agrees with you, etc. ad nauseum.
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