 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jake
Date: 2004-01-09 21:10
Hi,
I am a junior and i am seriously getting into choosing the right college for me. Im really not sure which music college to go to, and since i live in the middle east things like college fairs and visits are very limited,
my choices are juilliard, oberlin, and eastman, which one should i choose, or maybe there is a better college out there. I dont know, thank you
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-01-09 22:30
Have you been accepted to any of those three? I hear their admissions standards are pretty tough. You might look into some lower-profile institutions to fall back on.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-01-09 22:37
Your choices are Juillaird, Oberlin, and Eastman... the important question is once you pick a college, will you drive there in your Bentley, Lamborghini, or Ferrari???
DH - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2004-01-10 02:42
If you live in the Middle East, why restrict yourself to the northeast United States? There are many fine schools elsewhere, some of which aren't so ridiculously difficult to get into. And if you want to stick to the northeast, add NEC, CIM and Peabody (not really northeast, but then neither is Ohio). For the record, I live in the northeast (near Eastman) and it's negative 12 degrees Fahrenheit and falling right now.
I don't know what your money situation is but if you have issues there consider European, Canadian and Australian schools- they tend to be much cheaper. McGill in Montreal has an excellent reputation. I can't say I have any expertise in other schools abroad but there are lots of people on this board who do.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2004-01-10 03:09
theclarinetist.....
Why do you assume that in your post? Jake could be an excellent musician that knows he will get in anywhere full scholarship(ok, maybe that's not likely at all). What if his parents have money they've been saving for his college tuition? Even if they didn't, I still would find your exaggeration to be of no value to him or anyone else.
Bradley
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-10 03:44
Colleges in Australia for International students is not cheap. Cheaper than the US at the moment, but as of 2005, much much MUCH more expensive. Universities will be allowed to charge WHATEVER THEY WANT in upfront fees for a course.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-01-10 03:51
if you want a serious response, it's because I highly doubt there are THAT many clarinet players alive who could have their pick of 3 top schools like that. Most people would thank their lucky stars to get into one of them, much less all three (not to say that no one could, or that Jake couldn't). I'm assuming since he's a junior, he probably hasn't been accepted into those colleges yet, and it's somewhat presumptious to assume that you could have your pick of any of them, regardless of how good you are or how much money you do or do not have. No offense to the original poster... I don't know how good you are, but I do know that it isn't wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Rather than say that I doubt you'd be able to get into all three of those schools with incredible ease and pick whichever you choose, I was trying to be funny and less direct.
DH
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-10 04:59
"Don't count your chickens before they hatch"
What if you pick one of those colleges, have your heart set on it, then get rejected? How you gonna feel? A more realistic (and less depressing) way to go about things is to apply to whatever schools you like. As long as you can pay those application fees, there's no reason to exclude applying to any school you choose. Then see which ones you are accepted too. THEN choose amongst those.
Also don't neglect "safety schools" like someone said above.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kadzia
Date: 2004-01-10 05:45
The most enlightening statement I received when looking for a school was simply that no one holds the one secret on how to play the clarinet. There isn't a magic yogi in NYC or Rochester or wherever that holds the one true insight on clarinet playing.
The techniques to playing the clarinet are fairly straight ahead and well known, the trick is to find a teacher, environment, and school that you feel comfortable with. It's worth repeating, have lessons with teachers, visit schools, talk to students, and find out who you'd be willing to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to over the next 4 years.
All things being equal, the one determining factor on how succesful you will be is how concentrated an effort you can put forth every day in the practice room. So find a quality teacher and environment that will spur you on and forget about the name of the school on your diploma.
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Author: Jake
Date: 2004-01-10 07:53
I cannot believe the answeres I am getting, Just becuase i live in the middle east do you gus think that i am not as talented, well i am, i got accepted into a highschool honor band in 7th grade being the 5th top clarinettist, i was able to perform the premeire rhapsodie last year!!!! Teachers here are more than just amazed becuase they havent seen this in other schools even in america, i only chose the north east becuase i hear thats where the top are, now stop thinking im so .... untalented, please try to help, i think i know what my standerds are trying to shoot for a school like juilliard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-10 08:24
No matter what talent you have, I still stick to my guns of don't start choosing until you've been accepted. Apply to as many as you like. Those three schools you mentioned are all topnotch, but why bother "choosing" until you've gotten acceptance letters?
I myself was accepted out of high school into two very good colleges (not for music but rather academics/extra-curricular). Full scholarships for both. but I didn't sit there and debate what college to attend until I got the acceptance letters from both. Needless to say, I made the WRONG choice because I didn't know the whole truth behind it, but that's something to wonder about AFTER you get accepted.
Certainly do your research now, but if you honestly can't decide between these three, maybe the letters you recieve in the mail will help you choose. Maybe one out of them will reject you (for whatever reason) and therefore your choice will be easier.
For now continue doing well with your performance and study and focus on the more pertinant questions such as what to play for audition pieces, etc. etc.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-10 15:13
All of the schools you have pre-selected have great reputations and are "good". My college clarinet professor got his DMA from Eastman. What about Curits. Our flute professor was a graduate of Curtis and came to our university after a successfull career with the Phidladelphia Orchestra under Ormandy.
One other thing that I would (now) consider, if going back to a college, is its proximity to a larger metropolitan area, such as New York or Chicago where there are major symphony orchestras and numberous playing opportunities, as well as lots of great players to learn from. So, how about Northwestern Univesity in Evanston, IL (a burb of Chicago) (the great Russell Dagon teaches there) (and Larry Combs is close bye) (and Chuck Hedges plays at Andys on Hubbard) (etc). My friend, Dennis Nygren, got his DMA from Northwestern and now teachs at the university level. Gregory Smith went to Northwestern and now has a steady gig with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
Of course, these guys were good players and would have had success no matter where they studied. No matter what school you choose, the rest will be "up to you". Julliard, Eastman, Oberlin--Northwestern, Curtis--I think it will not make "much difference". I envy your ambition--good luck.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2004-01-10 15:39
William- I think it'll make very important differences such as whether you get a job or not. It all depends on the teachers at these schools and which one is the best for you. (Like Kadzia said)
Jake, I wasn't trying to say you were not talented enough incase your last post was directed towards me in some way. There is A LOT of competition for all of these schools, so be careful when choosing. Always have a safety school no matter how good you are, I mean what if you mess up in auditions and Juilliard which you had your heart set on doesn't work out- and trust me, it can happen with all three.
People from my HS have all gone to the top conservatories- Juilliard, Curtis, Eastman, CCM (way too many to name, so I will stop here) and they all pretty much love it at their own school, but that's because all the professors for each instrument, and even the core music subject teachers(music theory, history etc.) all went to top conservatories and they all make sure A LOT of research goes into which school their students pick. Please don't just go for a school because of it's big name, and don't leave out Europe.
Bradley
Jake- do you have MSN, Yahoo or AIM messaging services?
If not, what's your email address?
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-01-10 15:42
Jake,
Don't take offense. I don't think anyone assumed that you are not talented. But there are a lot of very talented people who want to get into those schools. I'm sure all the people who audition for seats in top symphonies are very talented, but there are only so many symphony chairs available, and a lot of VERY TALENTED people don't always get the seats they are very capable of filling. Similarly with colleges, there are only so many seats available in those three colleges you named and regardless of your ability level, assuming you could pick any of the three and easily have it is arrogant and will probably lead to dissapointment. By all means, audition for all three and if they look like options, look into them. Getting into these schools is no easy feat, even for the most talented people.
This is sort of the same issue as when someone posts a question saying "I'm going to learn the Corigliano Concerto in a month, any suggestions on interpretation?". The poster probably has the best intentions, and they get offended when their question is answered with skepticism and advice they don't want to hear. Understand it's nothing personal...
DH - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-10 15:47
Bradley wrote:
> Jake- do you have MSN, Yahoo or AIM messaging services?
> If not, what's your email address?
The whole idea of not showing an email address is just that ...
Publishing it here would kind of defeat the purpose ...
As long as you show yours you can always invite the person to email you.
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2004-01-10 16:36
This reminds me of my world, a bit! All across the world there are beautiful young people who in their town are the prettiest or maybe the best actors or musician. Yet, when they come to seek a job in NYC in the arts, they're up against "thousands"! When I was a very young photographer, I called The Ford Model Agency and asked them to send over a few blue eyed blonds for a shoot. It was like something you only see in the movies, within two hours my studio held over 100...blue eyed blonds, all stunning. While looking at their books, I receive a call from my Ford contact, "If these girls won't do, I can send another set". Schools look for many different qualities in their selection and sometimes a great personality will win over other attributes. Jake, where in the middle east are you from?
Fred
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Author: Jake
Date: 2004-01-10 17:18
hello everyone, sorry for getting so angry, the orchestra conductor keeps posponing my solos, anyways, thank you guys a lot and i will apply to a safety college and still go for those other big ones, i live in jordan now but i might move next year, my email is aj9098@hotmail (dont ask me why) and i do have msn!
Thanx
Jake
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-10 19:25
Quote:
I called The Ford Model Agency and asked them to send over a few blue eyed blonds for a shoot. It was like something you only see in the movies, within two hours my studio held over 100...blue eyed blonds, all stunning. While looking at their books, I receive a call from my Ford contact, "If these girls won't do, I can send another set". Now I'M jealous! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-01-10 20:58
Just to keep in mind, there's a whole different standard between high school and college, and even between different schools of similar repute. In high school, I thought I was a "really good" clarinetist, and that I knew a few other "really good" clarinetists. A week in college really put me in my place when I realized that playing "really good" at high school translates to "mediocre" in college.
It's all a matter of perspective, and on the range of your standards between "good" and "bad." A professor of mine, a saxophonist, was extremely accomplished and had played with some of the biggest names in America. A fantastic musician in his own right, he thought he knew just about all there is to know about it--he had arrived and had a successful performing career. He then played in an ensemble alongside another saxophone player that told him "You don't know how to play the saxophone." Over the following years, he learned all sorts of new techniques and in retrospect agrees that at the time, he really didn't know how to truly play the saxophone.
After four years of classes and ensembles with him, I think I am just now starting to actually learn how to play the clarinet, though before I met him I thought I knew perfectly well how to do it. Now even a simple whole-note scale is a challenge. The only time I know I am in trouble on a piece is when it feels like there is nothing to improve.
By all means, shoot for Juilliard, but keep your options open. I'm sure there are lots of high school juniors who have played Premiere Rhapsodie. I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess that most conservatories don't accept more than a half dozen clarinetists per year (I've heard talk of one seat per year for graduate programs). You may very well be the best, but without actually hearing you I have no basis other than hearsay.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-01-10 21:49
The Junior Year of High School is a great time to start investigating Colleges. The idea is to, if at all possible, go VISIT THE SCHOOL and take a lesson from the teacher at the School that you would study with - if you went there.
A visit & lesson at a prosective school will certainly help to limit and/or avoid mistakes. College & Universities are alot like Clarinets, Mouthpieces, Reeds, & Ligatures. One brand, strength or style does not fit all.
This past summer we took a trip to several Colleges. We took lessons everywhere we went. We took Tours as well. We got to see Dorms. It was enligtening. Every Professor (of Clarinet) welcomed us with open arms. My daughter got some great lessons. She certainly developed some ideas & opinions about College.
We visited Northwestern, Michigan, Cleveland Conservatory, Oberlin, Eastman & Ithaca. My daughter had previously studied at DePaul, Indiana, and had met more than a few Clarinet Professors while attending Summer Sessions at Interlochen.
We did not visit every school - my daughter will get a full Tour of these (2 others) institutions in February.
My daughter did attend the Indiana University Audition Clinic which is run up by Howard Klug, a top Clarinet Professor & a 1/3 of "Bridges to Bloomington". The week-long 5 day Audition Clinic was not overly expensive & gave my daughter a feel for College life, practicing, performance, etc.
At the insistence of my daughter's helpful & knowledgable Clarinet Teacher (a Symphony Principal) she has gone to some LOCAL auditions. My daughter now has a Full College Scholarship in her bonnet. She also has received some GREAT EXPERIENCE in the College Audition process - which will serve her well in her COMING auditions.
I'll follow up with random thoughts: We were in AWE of Eastman. We think it's a great place for an ADVANCED degree. It's not for my daughter at this time. We walked in to k.581 being played in a hallway by some great musicians! Talk about goosebumps ... (and an incredible sound).
Consider WHO (type of students) you will be going to school with. Some schools have lots of graduate students & others just a few. Personally, for my own child, I favor situations where competition between undergrad & grads is limited. I am not saying such competition is bad or wrong. Some great schools have limited grad programs, some don't. Opportunity is an important thing to me. Clarinet Professor are equally important.
The point is - there are many, many attributes to consider. What about Travel on subways to "classes" by an 18 y/o who is coping with the start of college life. Look at the SF Conservatory which has no Dorms & no "food plan". I can tell you right off - the latter won't sit well with my daughter's mother.
AND, to the extent possible, everyone in the family should be a part of the college selection process. SO, enlist the help of your parents when & where possible - seek their guidance, input & help.
Best of luck in your college choice.
mw
Post Edited (2004-01-10 21:50)
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-01-11 01:25
Hey, theclarinettist- I'm going to learn the Corigliano Concerto in a month- do you have any tips on interpretation?
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Author: bassclarinetchicka88
Date: 2004-01-11 16:41
college is a tough decision - i dont think anyone is trying to say that you are less talented because you are middle eastern. on the contrary, it might be beneficial to you since 25% of the people that go to eastman are actually from outside the US. you are obviously very talented, its just that you are applying to 3 of the most prestigious schools worldwide. nearly everyone who applies is going to be talented. i plan on applying to all 3 of them also - if youve got the money, the work ethic, and an accpetible amount of talent, why not, right? but since so many talented clarinetists apply, youve got to have more than raw talent to back it up. how are your grades and test scores? what do you do outside of school? what about community service?
i toured juilliard this summer. its a very small, prestigious, and expensive school - in fact, i think you even have to have an invitation to audition there. i very seriously doubt theyll let you do it over a tape, either. once you get in, the housing is limited, so keep that in mind to add to your extra costs.
to audition at eastman, you have to be available all day from 9 am - 6pm on the day of your audition - they last all day and your audition is not your only requirement. you have interviews, you meet the faculty, tour the school, etc. they really like to get to know their applicants. its a good idea to have your audition piece memorized, because it looks good and only 25% of applicants actually get in. youre encouraged to meet with the faculty, which is a plus. your sat/act scores are optional, but theyre also a good idea provided you scored well.
my band director actually went to oberlin on trumpet. its the one i know the least about, but i do know that you have to be pretty familiar with the mozart concerto, weber concertino/concerto #1, the rose etudes, all of your scales, probably many orchestral excerpts, and a pretty darn good sight reader. your sat scores are also required.
good luck - i seriously wish you the best and it sounds like your chances are pretty good. dont let anyone make you unneccesarily nervous, because nerves dont perform, and always shoot for the best you can be! (cheesy, but it works) ill keep you in my prayers - and who knows? maybe we'll run into each other in the future at one of these great schools!
oh, and rachel - im trying to learn the corigliano too - i dont have as limited a time frame as you, but i understand the situation!
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Author: Jake
Date: 2004-01-11 18:11
hello everyone, thanx for the advice im getting
what is this corigliano concerto?
everyone is talking about it, please inform me
bye
jake
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-01-12 00:44
theclarinettist- yes, I thought you were referring to my post. I didn't say that I would learn it in a month- I am not that good- I just meant that a month is usually the amount of time it takes for me to start saying, "I need something else to work on besides this". It also gives me enough time to get a picture of the piece in my head, so that I don't get too confused by playing lots of unfamiliar music at once. I expect it will take me quite a long time to learn the concerto (which I haven't actually got yet, at the moment I am saving my money to buy a violin).
Jake- the Corigliano Concerto is an extremely difficult concerto for the clarinet, written by John Corigliano Jr sometime in the 20th century; I can't remember the exact date, though.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-01-12 00:46
This thread is in danger of being longer than my "ever been defeated" one. :( I'll have to think of some other way to upset everyone.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-01-13 03:11
Jake and bassclarinetchicka88...
I went to Oberlin. I loved it. I learned more there than I ever thought there was to know. (disclaimer...I was there a long time ago, and there is another teacher there now)
I didn't just learn about clarinetting but I thought I was hot $##7 after graduating. Then I went to Northwestern for grad school and realized I wasn't. I'm not saying Oberlin didn't prepare me for that.
Oberlin is small, contained, and very insular. It is a wonderful place to feel "at home." I personally was very scared the one time I visited NYC...LOL! I don't know how 18-year-olds from all over manage to cope if they first leave home to go to school there! (That's just my opinion, of course...)
Jake...investigate all you can. I'm assuming you have visited websites for all the colleges which interest you. If possible, email the clarinet teachers there (or admissions officers) to answer any questions you may have. I'd recommend emailing the teachers in order to introduce yourself to them so you're not a completely "cold" read at the audition. Oh yeah, I would also recommend taking the auditions in person. It's ever so much easier...
Bassclarinetchicka88...who is your band director? If you're not comfortable mentioning his/her name on a public forum, could you at least tell me if he/she was there from 1986-1990?
Thanks and all the best,
Katrina
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Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2004-01-13 05:33
Jake,
picking a college is a very personal choice. i STRONGLY recomment visiting every college you listed(and maybe a few others) and see which one best suits you. all three of those school have very different "feels". personally i did audition at two of the schools you mentioned(peabody was my third) and I ended up after much debate going to Oberlin. I can't say enough good things about Oberlin. You would have a different clarinet professor than I did(I was there under Larry McDonald). Mr. Hawkins is a fantastic clarinet player and professor i have heard.
the musical atmosphere of Oberlin(at least when i was there) was amazing. If you want more of my opinions please email me. I have posted several times about my oberlin experiences.
as a side note i went on to do my masters degree in bass clarinet with henri bok in the netherlands and i am currently playing in mexico fulltime.
good luck with you auditions.
best regards
bob hoit
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-01-14 15:44
Oh god, I love this drama! I love the fact that I can view it on a website and not so very much in my own personal life!
Jake-
Congrats on having such high goals as far as conservatories! It is rather ambitous to be interested in schools so far away from you. After all they you have to play big to win big and indeed you are playing big. You will find many cyncists where ever you go when you talk about your ambitions. Many of them angry because they haven't achieved greatness themselves or maybe never will or the fact someone that might be as good as them or better is scary (some are so unintelligent to actually think they are at the top of the field). Here are a few things about the schools you are interested in.
Juilliard - Obviously a very good school. I don't think that is as high of a clarinet school as it is for other instruments. Just because a school has a reputation doesn't mean you are going to get good instruction that will fit your needs (but i am sure you already know this)
Oberlin - What a good school. They are very lucky to have Richard hawkins with them and I know from hearing him play and knowing him that he is a real artist and knows what he is doing. I recently heard recordings of a person i played with in the chicago youth symphony and in just one semester he was many times better and I should also mention he was a hell of a good player before that as well. (when i mean good i mean it, i don't give praise little or actually i dont' give very much at all).
Eastman! - A very good school. Questionable area to go to school but none the less a very good school. Mr. Manassee is brilliant, one of the best players in the country today.
You may also want to consider a few other schools as well. I consider a good school based on the students who get jobs. That gets people mad but thats tough.
University of Southern California - Yahudi Gilad is brilliant and so are the students that he turns out. Recently his students have been getting more jobs than most others. And yes its because hes a good teacher (deal with it all who get mad over this claim)
Northwestern University - Russ Dagon, One of his students just recently won the richmond symphony audition. It isn't the first time one of his have won a job.
Good luck on your hunt for a school! Its going to be a long journey!
By the way, I had my pick to several of the best schools in the country and I was at the top of list on most. Don't listen to what anyone says. Work hard and hope for the best results that come out.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-01-15 02:45
I cute as that "putting someone down to make oneself feel better", Psych 101, theory is... it doesn't really apply here. While I can't speak for everyone, my "cynicism" (if you can call it that) comes from my realizing that the world is not going to give you everything you want and that you can't always count on getting things you think you deserve. Auditioning is a great example. For everyone person who considers themselves an excellent player, there are tons of other people just as talented and capable. Even if there isn't a single person with your ability potential, you could still bomb an audition or play in front of people who don't appreciate your interpretations and fault you for it.
Being aware of these facts and planning accordingly (by having a wide group of schools to choose from) is just the smart thing to do, no matter how good you think you are. It's got nothing to do with jealousy or trying to make myself feel better. I know more than a couple people who got stuck in community colleges because the one big school they were dreaming for fell through. (There is nothing wrong with community colleges, however, and I loved the one I went to). It's just smart to have your options open!
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Author: Jeanette
Date: 2004-01-16 00:02
Why don't you try the University of Mary in North Dakota? Small school, dedicated faculty....
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Author: Carmen
Date: 2004-01-16 20:36
Don't forget that little school over here in Chicago. DePaul University has some great instructors and players, and many of our graduates have jobs. But Look at many schools, take your auditions, get the results, then do what your heart tells you.
***...so do all who seen such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you can do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you.***
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