 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-01-03 00:34
I have been told by a specialist woodwind repair man that I should not use cork grease on my clarinet. He says that he does not like it and that it actually eats through the cork, causing the cork to deteriorate and fall off eventually. He also says it tends to get into the wood or the tone holes or pads sometimes, too. He says that it's not necessary to use cork grease and I've seen him flawlessly put new instruments together without cork grease and one of my friends, a customer of his, told me he hasn't used cork grease in a long time. I would love to not use it, but I find it awfully forceful to put the clarinet together and take it apart again without using cork grease. For example, it took me about 5 minutes to separate the lower joint and the upper joint after practicing a bit on my new R-13. Perhaps it's because the cork is new? I do not know. Does anyone have any comments or advice about whether using cork grease is a good or bad thing or is necessary? Thank you.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-03 00:45
I think that cork grease is essential to facilitate assembly and disassembly. There is just too much friction in tight-fitting joints that are not lubricated at all. There would be considerable risk of damage to the tenons, bending of keys, etc. Of course, one could sand down the corks but then there is the real risk of leaks and joint-wobble. I believe that GOOD cork grease does not do any damage to the structure of the cork and may in fact preserve it.
Henry
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-03 01:04
A couple of ways to look at this.
1) Yes the normal petroleum based cork greases do do damage to the cork. But you can, if you'd like, look at it in a sense that it is not hard nor costly to replace cork. So when it does eventually do damage to where the cork rips or falls off, go get it fixed for a few dollars and a few minutes.
2) As for the toneholes, someone tipped me off in a previous thread that you just don't need to use a lot. if you have enough excess cork grease that it gets in a tone hole, you are using too much. A good way to apply it is to grease up your index finger, then wipe your finger along the cork. The cork should not SHOW that there's cork grease on it, but should feel slick to the touch.
3) You can buy another product. Doctor's Products, a BBoard sponsor, offers alternatives to standard petroleum-based cork grease. You can do a search on "Dr. Slick" or "Dr. Syntek" (and also without abbreviating "doctor") to find out what people thought about these products as well as read about them on his website.
For me personally, I find that after you've used cork grease enough, the cork tends to stay slick. At this point, I can put my clarinet together without cork grease at all. I just apply it once in a while (maybe once every two weeks) and every time on the top tenon of the upper joint (since that cork was replaced not too long ago). The rest of the corks seem almost "infused" with grease and are slick anyway. Maybe this is what he meant.
I wouldn't assemble a new or freshly redone clarinet without cork grease. I would think that the cork would be more prone to ripping since it would have too much friction between the cork and the wood, and binding (like you said it took five minutes to dissassemble), and all the while you risk bending keys while twisting and pulling. To me, I think I'd be better off throwing a little grease on it. Even if it does take six months out of my $5 cork's life.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-03 02:47
Many varieties of cork grease WILL damage cork. Avoid that by using Doctor Slick, not by using a jar opener to disassemble your Clarinet. . .
Regards,
John
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-01-03 04:08
Don't be surprised if you still have sticking problems with a new R13 even with cork grease. A number of new R13 owners have reported stiicking caused by interference with the WOOD shoulder on the tenon. If this is the case, get it to a tech quickly for repair. (And yes, it happened to me!)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-01-03 11:40
A friend of mine usually makes his own greese from a mixture of bees wax and vaseline (Am. "petrolatum" according to my dictionary). This is the best cork greese I've ever used. He usually sends a pack once in a while to Guy Chadash who loves it.
You can easily make this yourself, melting the wax in a glass jar in boiling water. Add then an appropriate amount of vaseline to make it smoother. It might take a few times of experimentation before you get the right consistency. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Alphie
Post Edited (2004-01-03 11:42)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-03 12:33
Buy The Doctor's cork grease. You'll never have to worry abut your corks again.
Post Edited (2004-01-03 12:33)
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Author: deepriver27
Date: 2004-01-03 12:45
My take on this is that cork is reasonably inexpensive - bent keys are not.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-01-03 13:55
Re: "it actually eats through the cork, causing the cork to deteriorate and fall off eventually".
I've had my current clarinet for over 15 years and greased the corks with the manufacturer's grease, and this has not happened; in fact, all the tenon corks are in excellent condition and none have fallen off. Therefore IMO this statement is unmitigated nonsense.
It might be useful to keep in mind that cork is tree bark. If it's constantly wet, IMO it is more likely to rot than if there is some grease on it to prevent moisture from soaking in. As in most things, moderation is best: if you can see the grease there is probably too much.
Deepriver27 summed it up nicely (above) wrt the cost of cork replacement versus bent keys.
Hans
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-03 14:14
"He also says it tends to get into the wood or the tone holes or pads sometimes, too"
This will happen if too much grease is applied. I teach my beginners to rub their forefinger on the grease and then apply it directly to the cork from the finger tip. My rule is, "If you can see the grease after it is applied, you are applying too much". The greased cork should appear only mildly "wet", with no visable grease at all. And then, wipe your finger before you play to keep any grease off your keys, pads or clarinet body. A commercial tube of cork grease will last me for years.
After many years of using the same instrument, the corks will become "worn in" so that greasing may be necessary every time you assemble. I think that I lubricate my joints perhaps once a month, if that. Just enough to prevent unwanted cork wear and difficult assembly. I seldom grease my mouthpiece corks. Just some input for you to consider.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-03 14:55
Yes. a FINE discussion. My conclusions also, grease as needed, avoid excess. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2004-01-03 15:07
I'll give a vote to the DR. also. I use it when needed and a wee bit at a time.
No problems. Without it I would have to use force to get the darn thing apart and thats a no no.
peace
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-01-04 13:20
There have been other threads about cork grease.
Some years ago, an instrument tech here in michigan overhauled a clarinet. When I picked up the instrument, he gave me a really funny look when he asked whether I wanted the corks greased or not. I thought it was sort of odd. Turns he had once overhauled an instrument for someone, who had a fit when he found out there was cork grease on his new corks. He claimed that this damaged the cork, and only used white petrolatum. The customer made the tech remove all the corks and replace them again.
If I don't grease corks, my instruments don't assemble easily. The additional stress and friction on the ungreased corks can easily cause undesirable early wear and tear. I don't think it matters what you use, just use it sparingly.
If you earn your living with your instrument, shouldn't you want to maintain it in absolutely top-notch playing condition? What's the point of trying to have your corks last for decades?
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-01-04 18:15
I actually think that the problem getting the two joints apart after playing the instrument, which is new, has to do with the wood swelling, and not the grease on the corks. Because I used cork grease, and especially focused on the lower cork on the upper joint, which joins to the lower joint, but still could not get the damn thing apart without using force for a while. So, I think it is because of the wood swelling that I am not able to get it apart. Anyone have any say about that?
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Author: ChrisC
Date: 2004-01-04 19:44
Sounds like the joints are definitely swollen. I had the same problem over the summer. Take them to a tech and get them sanded down.
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-01-04 23:50
How did you get yours apart when it was swollen? I played mine for only about 15-20 minutes today, let it sit for an hour when I was done, and now I still cannot get the upper and lower joint apart and I really don't want to try and use any more force than I am now because I feel like I'm going to bend the keys or damage something. I've tried so hard that it's actually started to hurt, and still nothing. I just can't get it apart. And what is it that the repair man did to fix the problem?
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Author: ChrisC
Date: 2004-01-05 00:21
I was just very careful and patient when pulling it apart, and I rarely put it together all the way, which wasn't so great when trying to match pitch with other musicians. It took me a while to realize that there was a basic problem with the instrument, but it took only an hour's wait and about 20 bucks to get it fixed.
BTW, are you in a humid/tropical environment? It would be very rare, I think, for this kind of swelling to occur during the winter months in a temperate climate, since it is a result of excessive humdity.
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-01-05 00:51
No, I actually live in Massachusetts. But the weather hasn't been very cold and I have had the heat in my room up to about 50-60. Perhaps that has to do with it. It's just this whole swelling/getting stuck thing is so incredibly annoying. I use a humidifier in the case too: A "dampit" which is a little green tube with a wick inside that looks like a snake.
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-01-05 00:53
No, I actually live in Massachusetts. But the weather hasn't been very cold and I have had the heat in my room up to about 50-60. Perhaps that has to do with it. It's just this whole swelling/getting stuck thing is so incredibly annoying. I use a humidifier in the case too: A "dampit" which is a little green tube with a wick inside that looks like a little snake. And worst of all, is that I still cannot get this damn instrument apart and I'm so nervous that I'm going to damage it. All I want to do is put it away so I can relax. :(
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-05 01:50
You might try getting rid of the "dampit" in your case. Perhaps the humidity is too high for your paricular horn. (Of course, that may result in loose socket rings, but you can't have it all!). Anyway, especially since I assume it is still under warranty, you should take it back to wherever you bought it, and have the problem corrected. Should be a simple job.
Henry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-07 15:35
Alphie wrote about cork grease made from vaseline and beeswax. I mad and used this for many years, but definitely not now.
Alisyn, and Doctor's greases are far, far superior.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-07 21:39
Do some people actually expect tenon corks to last forever? If you are a serious player you should really learn to replace your own since it's quite simple. After replacing and fitting tenon corks I rub-in canning wax before applying any cork grease. The theory is that the wax fills the cork pores and keeps the grease on the surface. It seems to work.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-07 23:07
"Do some people actually expect tenon corks to last forever?..."
Of course not, but there is little point in discussing by arguing extremes. Neither do players knowingly and unnecessarily shorten the life of any other part of their equipment.
Vaseline/beeswax has a viscosity which changes dramatically with seasonal air temperature. When I used it I had a summer and a winter mix, but this only reduced the problem.
Almost every cork grease on the market both damages the structure of the cork (reducing its resilience) and also dries to a very high-viscosity, cakey mess. This mess 'claims' space between the cork and the socket. The combination of these two phenomena results in a cork which is actually a lot looser - too loose - when the cork and socket are cleaned.
In this condition the joint relies on the cakiness of the grease for both stability of the joint and for sealing. The grease actually DE-lubricates the cork, so that the joint does not move during play, or in extreme cases, fall apart.
Perhaps some players like to operate their instrument like this, but most players prefer maintaining the cork in a similar-to-original, resilient condition, with the function of the grease being to LUBRICATE.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-08 00:55
Quote:
The grease actually DE-lubricates the cork, so that the joint does not move during play, or in extreme cases, fall apart. I had never seen this happen until last night. I was sitting in with a community band that I had been thinking about joining and during a break one of the clarinetists was walking around holding the clarinet by it's upper joint.
I actually saw the lower joint just fall off when he took a step and the clarinet swung a bit forward. I had to hold my clarinet a little closer and when I got home I whispered "Don't worry Clarabelle. I'll never let that happen to you." (She pretended not to notice but she played a little flat and I can always tell when she's upset)
I guess I've always worried about that and that's why I tend to hold the clarinet by it's lower joint when walking around.
That comment just reminded me of this and I wonder if it could've been because of the cork grease and that he never realized, "Hey. It's actually TOO easy to assemble and dissasemble this."
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-08 14:51
I learned long ago to carry my clarinet upright like a rifle holding the bell.
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