 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: markeymark
Date: 2004-01-07 03:45
I have bought a couple of r13's at an auction.
I know that the serial number will show the date - but will it also tell whether it is an Elite / Presitge / Festival etc.
How do you tell one from the other.
PS what can anyone tell me about the S1? I own 2 of them and find them quite comparable to the r13. Any comments?
Thanks
Markey
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-07 03:57
THe elite doesn't have metal tenon rings. The prestige has an alternate Eb lever key. Don't know about the festival.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-01-07 14:30
The Prestige and Festival will have a silver badge on the upper joint identifying it. But if the badge is missing, it can be near impossible to tell them apart without a technician's eye.
I once had a loaner Prestige with a missing badge that I wanted to buy but wanted to be 100% sure it was a Prestige. I emailed Francois Kloc at Buffet with the serial number and he confirmed it was indeed. I ended up not buying it.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: azuka
Date: 2004-01-07 15:26
The Festivals are really fancy R13's. I think they are officially called F-13's though. Easy to tell them from R13's though since they have an oval metal emblem on the upper joint that says, predictably, "Festival."
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-07 15:52
azuka wrote:
> The Festivals are really fancy R13's.
Not true. They are acoustically different than a standard R13 (register tube placement is the most obvious change; there are a few outher differences in the bore and tone hole placement).
> I think they are
> officially called F-13's though.
That's what at least one distributor labels them as, but they aren't labelled as such by Buffet.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-07 16:11
"The differences between the S1 and the R13 are; The bore. The S1 has a policylindrical 14.62mm bore. The R13 has a policylindrical 14.64mm bore. The position and diameter of the tone holes are different.
The barrel bore is different as well smaller on the S1. The lenght of the bodies are different too The S1 has longer bodies. All of those differences makes a BIG difference on the sound, response, feeling of the instrument". Francois Kloc
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2004-01-07 18:38
I have a question within this context: In Germany Buffet does not sell the R13, R13 prestige, Vintage, so I can not test. They sell the Festival (and the Elite): Do the Festival , R13 Prestige and Vintage differ in sound, or are the differences just for convenience or intonation reasons (register tube)?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-07 18:46
If the S1 has a smaller bore on joints and barrel, how come it's longer? This sounds like acoustical balderdash, unless those clever wizards at Buffet have discovered a slick way to alter the laws of physics.
Also, a 20 micrometer difference in defined dimensions seems stunningly minute for any sort of woodwork.
Or am I just ignorant?
Regards,
John
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-01-07 20:10
A difference in 0.001 is SIGNIFICANT in acoustical consequences.
The sound may not SEEM all that different
BUT the way in which YOU achieve Your desired sound is altered.
SOOOOOOOOOOO....its a matter of preference.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-07 20:50
CPW: I do not disagree. I am just wondering how accurate a woodworker can be in finishing the inside of a wooden tube to a diameter specified finer than 0.001". Also, wonder what the defined tolerance might be?
I'm not claiming this is not possible (although hard to believe), but I never have known of such astoundingly close specifications in woodworking.
How on Earth do they do it? I would think this must be an extremely low-yield process. Or do they measure after processing and select by size for use in various products?
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-07 21:00
JMcAulay wrote:
> I am just wondering how accurate a
> woodworker can be in finishing the inside of a wooden tube to a
> diameter specified finer than 0.001".
At a specified temperature & humidity and a very hard wood with very dense grain - not all that hard with a reamer.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-01-07 22:20
I do that sort of work.....and yes, such a degree of accuracy is possible.
The tools are precise (and costly) and even minor variations in temperature and humidity make a difference.
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Author: markeymark
Date: 2004-01-08 01:23
WOW thanks for the info.
But still back to the primary question... and let me give you an example:
Wooden Clarinet.
Serial number 113514 (made it up).
No markings as to festival/whatever.
How can I tell it is an r13 vs RC vs _____.
Does anyone publish or know the serials and can fit them to a group?
Does Buffet not have this and publish it?
Like wine, was there a good year for Buffets? - and conversly a bad year?
I thank you in advance.
Mark
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-08 01:50
markeymark wrote:
> Serial number 113514 (made it up).
> No markings as to festival/whatever.
If no markings and no badge, assume R13. Sometimes Buffet can tell you the model, mostly not.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-08 02:00
I know some posters here say the newer R13s aren't that good (and from the ones that I playtested, I can't argue any different). Before 1980 and after 1965 or so and you're pretty much safe in the R13 range.
Of course there's always the fact that each instrument is better/worse for you than another, but R13 production between those years (reading from posts that I've seen) is generally referred to in the positive.
-RC has a different bore in the upper joint versus the lower joint (polycylindrical in UJ, conical in LJ)
-Prestige means that it has an alternate Eb/Ab key. Some prestiges are FB setups (optional) with an articulated C#/G# (I saw it advertised for RC Prestige, possible in the R13 prestige as well?)
-R13 is your standard 17 key, 6 ring setup.
-Elite has gold plated posts, adjusting screws on righthand B/E lever and C#/G#, pads with resonators
-Vintage R13No tenon caps, register hole 1mm higher, bell 1 mm longer, cylindrical A and Ab tone holes, slightly smaller bore (14.62)
Did I miss anything?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-01-08 02:56)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-08 02:08
sfalexi wrote:
> -Festival has gold plated posts,
When did that start? My son plays a pair of Festivals from not all that long ago and the post are not gold plated.
> pads with resonators
ditto. His originally were Gore-Tex.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-08 03:05
Mark, I don't know what you're talking about. The post above CLEARLY states that it's the "ELITE". Are you hallucinating?
Alexi
PS - Pay no attention to the "post edited" comment.
As for other ones,
Festival - Auxilliary Eb lever (can't find information on any other NOTICEABLE changes aside from comes with gore-tex pads) pointed needle springs (Maybe that's unique about it?)
Tosca - Well, it's advertised by many to have "perfect intonation". A pretty bold statement if you ask me. I guiess if the clarinet you bought has perfect intonation, it must be a Tosca!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-08 04:27
Mark,
THat may be noticeable while playing, however I thought he meant cosmetically obvious differences that one could notice since the original post was about telling the difference from one to the other. I realize that register tube placement would be measureably different, but it's not as noticeable to a naked eye as would be extra keys, or gold plating, or metal tenon caps or other things that I thought he might've easier used to be able to use as visual clues to what possible type it is.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-08 07:08
Mark C. and Alseg:
Thanks for the information. It is truly a surprise to me that a 20 µm difference in bore diameter can be consistently maintained between the two designs in manufacturing processes working with wood.
And one would think that although the absolute bore sizes would vary in service environments of varying temp/humidity/pressure/etc., the larger as-built would remain larger unless the woods are of different density, porosity, and such.
Now I only need to learn how Buffet achieves that voodoo acoustics miracle: making the bore smaller and longer, yet keeping the same pitch. Neat trick.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-08 08:32
My elementary perception is as follows:
Even if the tube were cylindrical like the body of a flute, the EFFECTIVE length of the air column extends slightly beyond the end of the tube. How FAR beyond depends on the frequency of the note, and the diameter of the tube. So the harmonics of a cylindrical tube are slightly out of tune with eachother. Imagine how complicated this gets when you 'fuzzy' the length of the tube by flaring the bell.
So playing about with the length and the diameter, especially of the flare of the bell, can make corrections for this effect, supposedly putting the low E and centre-staff B in tune with eachother.
There may also be an attempt to maintain consistency of tone for these two notes, which both have the unique feature of not venting via a tone hole.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-01-08 09:27
JMcAulay wrote: "If the S1 has a smaller bore on joints and barrel, how come it's longer? "
My S1 is shorter than my RC prestige. I suspect that it's also shorter than the R13. Now I would hate to contradict Francois Kloc, but perhaps he actually meant to say that the S1 has SHORTER bodies?
I've actually seen the people at the Buffet factory in France making the bores by hand. It's the only hole made in the clarinet that isn't done by machine. I doubt that such "astoundingly close specifications" are possible in this way. Has anybody actually measured it?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-01-08 09:30
Just read my post, and realised that it isn't clear. Of course a machine is used to ream out the bore. But the instruments are held in place by human hands during this process, not by another machine.
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Author: Mozarte
Date: 2004-01-08 15:30
Hi,
i can vouch that Tosca is not a bold statement from buffet as i have tried the first piece from the french buffet clarinetist(salesperson) who brought down for market survey.
its intonation is really stable and tonality is very even throughout the whole register!projection is great too!(loudest to the softest-no crack and chance of tone!but frankly speaking feels like playing a Leblanc Opus...but better!)!
the feel of the finger works is truely free and natural to handle.
heard that they have took 3 full years to design this model.its a revolutionary change if you compare to the other models.this is the best i have tried.
if you got a chance,do try it!you won't regret!
PS.but the price is quite expensive.maybe can buy a greenline.but dun think will be better then the wood itself.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-08 23:33
accuracy to 0.01 of a millimetre is possible with some level of consistency. Reed makers make this claim, with well documented failure due to a number of contributing factors- one of which may be that the material is (relatively) unstable (compared to Grenadilla). I imagine that maintaining this accuracy in mass production is a challenge.
re S1- these instruments had, in addition to a smaller bore, smaller tone holes. This (apparently) contributed to them having a "sweeter" sound. I am on the look-out for a S1 A clarinet if anyone has a spare.
Apparently Charles Neidich played a pair of S1s that he lost after they were left in the back seat of a taxi!
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-09 00:33
When I am turning a grenadilla tenon in my lathe, 0.01 mm (0.0004) does not seem insignificant. It is half the thickness of cigarette paper, or a feeler used for checking pad sealing. Under a pad it would constitute a leak needing attention. (After all, a technician is checking the relative 'drag' on a feeler, rather than finding places where the feeler slides out freely. If the feeler slid out freely, that would indicate quite a major leak.)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-09 00:44
SHOW them the drills in the Rubank Advanced volumes. SHOW them the drills in the Baermann books. The fact that there are drills for them show them to be important. SHOW them the spots where these fingerings are taught in the Rubank Beginner book (yes they are taught in this beginner's method book).
Somehow I entered this in the wrong thread. Sorry guys.
Post Edited (2004-01-09 23:06)
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Author: vrufino
Date: 2004-01-09 00:48
The Festival is like the Prestige in that there are silver plted keys and a left hand Eb key. However, it is clearly marked with an inlaid silver oval "Festival"
Dr. Vincent J. Rufino
Professor of clarinet and saxophone
St. Elizabeth University
Morristown, NJ
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