 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-01-06 17:43
Of course there is lot's of discussion of pros and cons of various types of pads here in the archives, and I am working my way through that.
But would anyone care to summarize how a repairman chooses the type or quality of clarinet pad they use for a repair or overhaul.
To my knowledge, with a quick look at Ferree's, one can choose from cork, gortex (ala Buffet), Valentino normal and greenback, Norbeck, Ferree's De'Jur, single skin, and double skin. Any others I should be aware of?
Thanks,
Wayne Thompson
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-06 17:48
Leather and Straubinger pads come to mind as possible ones left out on that list. You can search for those too. And don't forget those that make their own pads (you'd have to send THEM the clarinet, but I know the Brannens and Peter Spriggs make their own pads instead of using storebought ones)
Sigh. You'd think that at least ONE aspect about a clarinet wouldn't have so many variables. Even three types of plating, five (that I know of) fingering systems, and now they've taken away our peace of mind with pads too. Sigh.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 17:51
FISH SKIN!
unless of course that is what you ment by skins. they work well and are completly waterproof.
Jimmy
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-06 17:55
I have to say. That's the best marketing I've heard yet for pads.
"Up in the air! It's a bird!"
"No! It's a plane!"
"No! It's the SUPERPADS!"
How's that for a knee-slapper?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-07 02:34
marcia wrote:
> FISH SKIN!
>
> But what kind of fish??
A tuner fish (tuna fish) of course.
Thank for playing - drive home safely ...GBK
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-01-07 07:31
Thanks, all.
But my question stands: anyone able to put perspective on the issue?
From the Ferree's latest price list:
100 assorted medium thin single skin cost $35.40
100 assorted medium thin double skin cost $39.70
100 assorted medium double skin 'De'jur' cost $65.30
If you wanted some pads in your workshop, as an amateur, to work on old Artleys, or Bundys, or maybe ebay 1955 Cartiers, which would you buy and why?
Or, if the local technician offered to overhaul your clarinet, for a great low price, using the cheapest pads, would you care?
WT
PS The Superpad website didn't say much new, did it? I guess these are some new technology, as are the Norbeck silicon pads. I'm sure new pads are coming that are better, but I'm most interested in the 'conventional' skin types for now. By the way, does anyone know what is meant by 'skin'? Is it fish really??
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-01-07 09:16
The choice of pad is based on a number of considerations. The most common are leather and skin, most repair suppliers stock both of these as a matter of course. Another option commonly used, especially on RC's, is cork on the upper joint and leater on the lower. There are all sorts of 'artificial' pads now on the market such as those mentioned above, namely, gortex, norbeck, valentino etc..
Considerations include:-
Cup depth. Some instruments such as Armstrong, Artley, Selmer USA have relatively deep pad cups. They are difficult to pad with leather, although this is sometimes requested, and are best suited to skin pads or double bladder. Pad measurements are more difficult with these as pads are measured on their facing size as opposed to the cup diameter. Other brands such as Selmer Paris and Yamaha lend themselves more readily to leather pads which they are fitted with initially. Buffet and Leblanc can be done either way. I am talking about decent grade instruments here! Wooden that is.
Cork Pads. Provide a reliable seal and seating but are noisy/ clunky. They should only ever be used up the top end. The advantages are that the provide more projection. Players that use them swear that the instrument plays louder. They are more costly to fit owing to the fact that the cork selected must be free of worm holes and made by hand or expensive pre made pads purchased.
The so called waterproof or fool proofed pads. Norbeck and others come to mind here. They are a pain in the keister to use, from a repairers point of view. They do not hold their seating particularly well. They are often as noisy as cork but without the good qualities. Valentino are for emergency repairs only.
Leather Pads. The most durable next to cork and are often used in conjunction with cork or on their own. I have seen leather pads 50, 60, 70 or more years old that still seal. They tend to melow out the sound a bit but are inexpensive and easy to fit most of the time.
Skin Pads. Are quite easy to fit but require careful levelling and seating as well as pointyness/ flatness. They are nowhere near as durable as leather and cork. They brighten the sound a little but are prone to failure after a relatively short time. They are not, as stated above, completely waterproof. In fact they are quite susceptible to water damage.
There are a number of considerations with pad choice. One thing to bear in mind is that tan leather and white leather pads behave identically. Any difference is cosmetic regardless of the taurus excretia you hear people going on about. No pad choice is superior in any absolute way. The choice is both personal and practical. I do this for a living and have based these observations on 20+ years of experience as both a player and repairer. You will hear a lot of wives tales on this subject!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-07 12:00
Speaking of old leather pads, I recently finished phase I of restoring a very old Kohlerts Bb and thought about replacing the original white leather pads. But instead I treated them with Venetian creme a couple of times and let them sit awhile. After replacing the keys I tried playing it see which pads were bad......guess what, it plays great. Those old pads had seating grooves in them like grand canyon.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-01-07 13:23
Perhaps something with Retinol-A would help prevent the appearance of fine lines, and decrease the depth of wrinkles?
********
Pure lanolin should be good for this, too.
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-01-07 13:33
What about the ones with little metal disks in the middle?
Some are resonators but others seem more stuctural.
What are the brands and what are they for.
A noted tech put them on the lower joint large pads of my instrument
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-07 15:08
"Fish skin?"!
Otherwise called 'goldbeaters skin', because it was interleaved with sheets of gold which was then beaten to make gold leaf, for embossing on leather, sign writing, etc. A web search will produce more info.
It seems to be sourced mainly (entirely?) from the intestine wall of cattle. It is pretty well identical to (natural) sausage skin.
These pads are also called 'bladder pads'. Several decades ago I was assured by a local producer of goldbeaters skin, that it was from the buoyancy bladder of a certain fish. They told me which fish, but I have forgotten. This seems to fit with the term 'bladder'. This producer is now long out of business. I once spent a lot of time researching the internet but could find no reference at all to a fish source, although there was quite a bit about the cattle source.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-01-07 19:12
A guy, probably somewhat into his seventies, brought his horn to me a few weeks ago. He hadn't played it in over 'fifty years', he said. His daddy bought the instrument for him during the Depression Era and he thought it might still be okay, but he wanted me to check it out, clean it up and tune it up so he could play Christmas carols with his grandkids. He'd need it in time to practice for a couple of days for that.
I noticed that the UJ/LJ were mismatched - different serial numbers. I advised him about that and that there was really nothing I could do about it. We decided that since he'd played it in his high school band it was probably, at worst, a borderline problem. (When I play tested it, it was 'borderline' out of tune with itself (sigh).
Do I tell him it's a piece of junk and disappoint him, I asked myself, refuse the job? It was a hard call to make, being Christmastime and all and what the horn meant 'to him'. Therefore, I advised him that I could clean it and oil it, make some minor adjustments and the horn would probably play okay, for his purpose... well, it might play for another fifty years, maybe, because the brown leather pads were, seemingly... in perfect condition.
This seemed to be one for [my] record book. The pads might actually be worth more than the instrument....
The joint corks hadn't done so well, however; they did need to be re-done.
He picked up his instrumet a couple of days later. That clarinet with its new joint corks, keywork adjusted, polished and oiled and, with its own brown leather pads from several decades before... as far as I know, is still goin' strong 
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-07 23:16
Generally speaking, I find aged leather pads quite porous, even if they look to be in good condition.
Even new leather pads are quite porous - you can easily suck air through them - unless they are treated (and labelled 'waterproof').
This porosity surely affects response of the instrument.
Hence the big advantage of bladder pads.
Leather pads also tend to get noisy as age both increases the contact surface area on the tone hole, and hardens the leather.
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Author: Snowy
Date: 2004-01-08 00:32
The second last time I looked I am sure that Superpads weere standard issue on Peter Eaton clarinets.
This doesn't now seem to be the case, or at least, if they are used they are not reffered to on the Eaton site.
Anyone know why?
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Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-08 03:37
I have no clue what kind of fish. I do know people who use them and they are very good for the big pads on the lower joints. as for upper, I am for cork all the way.
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Author: markeymark
Date: 2004-01-08 03:53
does anyone have any idea where one can buy gore-tex pads and or superpads?
I cant seem to find them...
Thanks
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-01-08 13:09
"The so called waterproof or fool proofed pads. Norbeck and others come to mind here. They are a pain in the keister to use, from a repairers point of view. They do not hold their seating particularly well. They are often as noisy as cork but without the good qualities. Valentino are for emergency repairs only"
I have known a number of repairmen who use Valentino pads. I believe they are an option from Albert Alphin and that Guy Chadash uses them on his hand made custom clarinets. I have had them on instruments and found them to be superior pads, and better than cork in many respec ts. Cork can seal great, but can be unforgiving if the key becomes slightly out of line or bent, and can also be noisy. The Valentinos are quieter and due to their softer nature are more forgiving. Some of my students have had them on instruments and they last for a tremendous amount of time, even under advers conditions. On my own instruments, I have found them to last forever and seal like a drum.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-01-08 18:35
Good discussion!
A note on the Valentino pads some of you have just talked about. In my reading on the archives I've seen discussed the difference between Greenback (better) and regular Valentino pads. Maybe that is the difference between Mark's comment to use them only for emergencies and Ed's comment that they are used for very high quality work?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-08 19:40
>>>>Generally speaking, I find aged leather pads quite porous, even if they look to be in good condition.
Even new leather pads are quite porous - you can easily suck air through them - unless they are treated (and labelled 'waterproof').
This porosity surely affects response of the instrument.
Hence the big advantage of bladder pads.
Leather pads also tend to get noisy as age both increases the contact surface area on the tone hole, and hardens the leather.<<<<
I switched to leather pads about 4 years ago. In my opinion there is no better pad than the leather pad. I did a lot of testing with leather and bladder pads installed. Basically leather pads seal the same (or better) that bladder pads. Leather sometimes (when humid) makes a sticky sound but I've never encounter a noisy leather pad whatsoever.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-08 20:39
In a forum such as this even a simple words like 'seal', and 'noisy' may have very different meanings to different people.
I have many customers who thought their instrument was going really well, until it was serviced, and the customer discovered just how much better it could go.
There gets a point where discussion like the present one starts becoming rather meaningless because our expected parameters are all different.
New leather pads are indeed quiet, as are new bladder pads, but this depends a lot on the hardness of the felt rather than the leather itself.
Soft felt is normally used for leather pads. Perhaps this is because leather pads are often resorted to when tone holes have blemished edges, or when the installer does not have the skills to get a firm pad perfectly level with the tone holes. Some models of bladder pad have very firm felt indeed. Perhaps firmer felt is generally used for bladder pads partly because bladder is less able to successfully follow the contours of a deeply seated pad.
Leather pads, if they have been 'treated' ('waterproofed'), may be (temporarily?) waterproof and air-proof, but writers are saying how long they last. OLD leather pads typically have felt and leather that has become hard and compressed. They are noisy (when they slap closed on a large surface area of tone hole), and leaky (by my standards). This hardening and leaking is far more apparent on saxophones, where the damage from age and use (hammering, saliva, and wet/dry cycles) is more conspicuous.
Bladder pads would not last long on a saxophone because of the relatively sharp tone hole edges. Hardened leather and perished leather soon cuts through on saxes.
A customer once asked a manufacturer why they used leather pads. The response was "because we always had done." Hmmm. I note that this maker did not do a good job of key-cup/tone-hole alignment. Methinks the soft leather pads were to reduce set-up time and expense.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-08 23:52
Gordon,
It wasn't my choice to switch to leather. Actually my customers were asking for it. They wanted leather pads, or cork on the top and leather on the bottom. Personally, I hated to change anything I my usual routine, but you know how it goes. Customer wants it customer gets it. Some of my customers said they would never go back to bladder pads again.
Couple years ago I re-padded with leather my own beloved King Marigaux and the horn is absolutely remarkable wouldn't change a thing.
Regards,
Vytas Krass
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-01-09 08:42
Fox uses white leather pads on their bassoons but gives them two coats of carnuba wax as I recall. I also use this wax on bassoon and sax leather pads. In addition, the wax seems to give clarinet and flute skin pads a better seal. Waxing cork pads does not seem to be needed. The Ferree's cork pads for oboes are fine for clarinets also, by the way. Almost all of them are useable.
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Author: jez
Date: 2004-01-09 09:09
Snowy,
I believe there was a dispute between Eaton and the makers of Superpads over his using them under license. It's a shame if he's stopped fitting them, but they're still available from the original source.
jez
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