 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 03:31
I was wondering if anyone here plays german clarinet. If so please respnd because I cant find anyone who actually plays one that I can talk to.
yes, I am considering abandoning the bohem.
Jimmy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-06 03:34
Jimmy wrote:
> yes, I am considering abandoning the bohem.
What advantages would you think you would get by switching to (which?) German system from the Boehm?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-06 03:38
Unless you're in Germany, why? Do you mean converting to the reform boehm?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-06 05:26
Many people who post here fairly regularly play Clarinets other than Boehm, Jimmy. Some use them always, others part of the time. I do occasionally, but I would not "abandon" the Boehm system.
Do a search on "German system" or "Albert" (without the quote marks) and you should find a large number of prior threads, some with posts from people who play German system and Oehler Clarinets exclusively. .
In his book, Dr. David Pino points out that perceived disadvantages of fingering systems do not restrict virtuoso players. And if everyone played the same system, we'd have one less thing to argue about. 
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-06 06:04
there's at least one ADVANTAGE of using the German system that comes to mind....
... hold, now there's two....
a slippery slope.
i'm sticking with Boehm, but don't let that stop you.
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-01-06 06:12
I would suggest that you go to Chris Tyle's site:
http://www.geocities.com/silverleafjb/clarinet2.htm
I play Albert (I guess it's similar to the German system) clarinet. Never played any other system, and I play Greek folk music. I prefer the so-called "simple" system. My favorite insruments are Buffet with no rings on the upper joint.
If I can answer any questions, I'd be happy to.
I'm curious, though, why you'd want to change from Boehm.
Good luck.
John
Kalakos
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2004-01-06 06:20
Hi, Jimmy -
I play an Oehler as my primary instrument... been tootin' it, off an on, for about fourty years. Believe it or not, there are still a few of us "Albert" players scattered around North America and a couple, last time I checked, in my hometown - Sacramento, CA. I wouldn't totally abandon the Boehm though, you'll find better quality new horns, for the price, than German systems... in the States, that is.
Some folks may differ with me but, in my opinion, German system horns sound the same as Boehms.
Feel free to talk to me all you want
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 14:21
I am looking at the Oehler or more probably full Oehler system. I want to explore them because they seem to facilitate certain runs which requier more complicated cross fingering switches on bohem.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: thomas.b
Date: 2004-01-06 16:04
I am German and play (of course) oehler system clarinet (Dietz Volloehler, Viotto mp, G3-facing).
I think its very positive that you want to try the german system clarinet. Why?
for long years, I only knew german clarinet, everybody told me: Boehm clarinet? hmmmm, ok for Jazz, but.....So I had a lot of prejudicies against the Boehm clarinets. An English friend gave me one day an old plastic B&H clarinet just to show. I was curious, took my mp (which did not fit) and played some notes. Next day the same. In my mind I began to change my mind. I began to like this sound which is different, direct, focussed, resonant and brighter. I bought a Boehm clarinet ( everybody looked at me as if i was mad, a Buffet E13 student instrument). I did not like the mp, bought me a Viotto mp with G3 facing and played it with my white master vandoren reeds. After some practice I began to love playing Boehm system.
I do not want to change to Boehm or to change someone to Oehler, but for me personally I would never abandon the German or the Boehm system. There are days or situations I prefer oehler, other situations I have more fun with my Boehm. The only reason to give my E13 away is to buy a professional Boehm clarinet (but I can not yet decide the model and the manufacturer, so I leave it for a while).
For me with trying the other clarinet system I discovered new possibilities (of sound) new fun and satisfaction. Why not try?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jez
Date: 2004-01-06 16:13
The Reform Boehm is a combination of German style Bore with Boehm style Keywork.
I think that using that may enable you to copy the German sound, but it's a shame to lose out on the opportunity to benefit from the Oehler fingering which undoubtedly makes some passages easier.
I play both systems and although I started with the intention of just using Oehler for 'appropriate' German music, find that I sometimes use it in other repertoire when it seems easier, for example a lot of notes just above the middle register which speaks beautifully, or a lot of important bottom E's or F's where the thumb key is good for tuning.
jez
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 16:25
It is verry funny that ou say the boehm has a brigher sound because they usually have a smaller bore, giving them that more focused tone and also what I think is a darker tone.
also in looking for a good bohem, the buffet R-13 (by far the most widly used in america) and all buffets actually, have a small bore. about ten or eleven mm. lablac tends to have a larger bore, my favorite being the lablanc opus (14mm) and another very good and popular model the lablanc concherto, which has a smaller bore.
good luck on your quest
also, where can I get a good oehler system clarinet? or would you recomend the full oehler system? I can only find these systems from yamaha and custom made ones that are way to expencive from places like Orsi.
Thanks
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 16:27
where can you get them? who makes them? what makes a german bore german?
Thank you very much,
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 16:34
no rings on the upper joint. that sounds like a muhler system. is it one?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-06 17:16
Jimmy wrote:
> It is verry funny that ou say the boehm has a brigher sound
> because they usually have a smaller bore, giving them that more
> focused tone and also what I think is a darker tone.
The rest of the world calls the German clarinets "darker". YMMV.
> also in looking for a good bohem, the buffet R-13 (by far the
> most widly used in america) and all buffets actually, have a
> small bore. about ten or eleven mm.
There's something very, very wrong if your information says anything like this. The Buffet R13 (a standard Boehm clarinet) has a bore size around 14.65 mm.
> lablac tends to have a
> larger bore, my favorite being the lablanc opus (14mm) and
> another very good and popular model the lablanc concherto,
> which has a smaller bore.
The Leblanc Opus & Concerto, last I looked, had a 14.61 mm bore, smaller than Buffet ...
What constitutes a big-bore instrument is debateable, but I start thinking it's larget at about 14.75 or larger; a Selmer Centered-Tone from the (40s?) had a bore size of 14.90 mm.
> also, where can I get a good oehler system clarinet? or would
> you recomend the full oehler system? I can only find these
> systems from yamaha and custom made ones that are way to
> expencive from places like Orsi.
A good Oehler system is going to be expensive, period, no matter where you get it from. The Yamaha and Orsi will probably be the cheapest of the lot; German makers tend to custom make the clarinets - you put down a deposit, they make the clarinet, and then you make the final payment upon delivery.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-01-06 17:20
Jimmy wrote:
> no rings on the upper joint. that sounds like a muhler system.
> is it one?
Rings or lack of rings are an indicator of just about nothing; so clarinets have them, some don't, professional and student, any system at all.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: thomas.b
Date: 2004-01-06 17:46
Oehler system clarinets are not in every case expensive. In Germany every manufacturer has a several different models which have different numbers of keys (and holes) and therefore vary in price.
There are companies like Schreiber ("sister of Buffet"),Keilwerth, Uebel, K. Hammerschmidt, Adler, Yamaha (lot more), that offer very good (intonation, sound) clarinets for a rather low price (street price 1000-1500 €) with 20-22 keys.
In orchestras usually hand made custom clarinets with full oehler system (including low f and E corrections) are used. These are very expensive (4500-6000 €), but very very good. Manufacturers are: H. Wurlitzer, W. Dietz, Leitner und Kraus, Hüying, Schwenk&Seggelke ...
(If you need links, please contact me)
The nominal bore of a Wurlitzer-type German clarinet is comparable with the Boehm (14.6-14.7), but the bore has a different shape. This results in more resistance of the german clarinet, darker tone etc. In Germany there are people who prefer larger bores. They play instruments like K. Hammerschmidt or austrian clarinets.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jimmy
Date: 2004-01-06 17:49
My apologies. I believed my information was given to me in sixteenths of an inch, which I should have known living in america with its confound bridtish (no offence to the british of course) measurment system. eleven eights of an inch is almost right at 14.4 mm.
So thinking I had read eleven mm and not eights of an inch, when I read lablanc had the 14.61 mm I assumed they were much larger. I thank you very much for clearing up my untill now unknown confusion.
I have had a lablanc normandy 4 as my main bb clarinet for almost ten years know. I measured its bore with a ruller and it comes to about 15.5 mm bore. (yes I do mean mm)
as far as my saying bright, I could for all I know consider bright the oposite of what everyone else calls it. perhaps I will swithch it.
another question: what gives the german clarinet its "darker" sound? something with the bore I presume?
thanks again,
Jimmy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-06 18:25
thomas.b wrote: everybody told me: Boehm clarinet? hmmmm, ok for Jazz, but...
Did they really tell you that, or are you maybe exaggerating a little?
I am aware that German orchestras tend to insist on Oehler instruments, partly for their sound and partly, I suspect, for the sake of tradition. But I find it difficult to believe that any serious musician really believes that the Boehm is unsuitable for playing the classics. Do these friends of yours think Britten or Ravel are better played on an Oehler? Do they refuse to listen to a foreign orchestra which dares play Mahler on Boehms? Or do they suppose that the jazz sound is the only sound a Boehm can make?
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not anti-Oehler. I think Karl Leister has a fabulous sound. But not the only sound.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2004-01-06 18:38
Jimmy... I don't know how you measured the bore of your Normandy 4 but the Leblanc website gives it as 14.85 mm (or .584 inch).
By the way, one doesn't measure it with a "ruler" but with a micrometer. Hope this helps.
Henry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-06 19:03
David: Some purists in the US select the "Albert" as the better stick for jazz. Curiously, to some in Germany, the Boehm is the preferred jazz instrument. I'm not at all sure this is related to sound as much as fingering, for reasons I also am not certain.
But it is interesting that "jazz" Clarinets are available in Germany with mostly German system keywork which is altered to be a bit closer to Boehm (such as reversed top two holes of the R joint, pad vs ring).
I would like to be enlightened on this topic.
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-06 19:10
John: I suspect the German jazz clarinets you describe are built that way to make the fingering like that of a sax. Remember that a sax plays F/F# like a Boehm, but C/C# like an Oehler.
I suspect this design is not because one fingering is easier than the other, but merely to reduce the risk of confusion.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-01-06 19:18
<<no rings on the upper joint. that sounds like a muhler system. is it one?>>
I think they call it the "simple system." These are much older instruments; maybe they were cheaper too. I thing the rings tended to help keep things in tune better, but I like the sound better without the rings for Greek folk music.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ebasta
Date: 2004-01-06 19:23
schreiber. 30 yrs old. still a solid/trouble free instrument.
Post Edited (2004-01-06 19:24)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-06 20:12
David: Yes, this clearly makes the basic fingering of the instrument almost the same as a saxophone. Although it is rather obvious, it just now has struck me that this would be a fine system for sax players who would like to double on Clarinet.
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-01-07 09:29
I play Oehler exclusively. I test and repair Boehm's of all makes and qualities daily, I also play next to players using them, and I would bever change to Boehm. I use a Yamaha with an Uebel as a spare. I use Zinner mouthpieces with White Master or Vintage D reeds. I am almost exclusively a jazz player specialising in small group playing. I also use the Oehler for doubling, mainly big band work. The sound is definitely darker. A boehm player that wants to blow over you will almost always be able to owing to the brighter sound. Volume isn't everything. I also have a few Albert's and a pair of Barrett Actions. I own a single Boehm, a Selmer N series A, for no particular reason.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vrat
Date: 2004-01-07 16:11
I have always thought the pinky key-work on German system might be better for jazz improvisations.
When playing a classical music, you know ahead what to play, and have a chance to optimize the pinky key fingering. If you are improvising though, the choices the Boehm system provides could be a little bit of a burden.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-07 17:24
Vrat - pianists have plenty of choices of fingering and seem to manage to improvise regardless.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
