 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinet34
Date: 2003-12-27 20:02
I have been playing the clarinet for three years now, and began playing on a Yamaha YCL20 model (Plastic). About a year ago, I upgraded to the YCL34 Intermediate model (Wooden). About a month ago, my YCL34 began to have some intonation problems. When I first put my instrument together and it is still "cold", it is sharp when it should be flat. As I continue to play on my instrument, it becomes even more sharp, and my barrel is pulled out above the cork, which is way too far. My open G and A are extremely sharp. I took my clarinet to one of the local music repair shops, and the technician there does not know what is wrong with it. He had me try playing on different mouthpieces, different reeds, and different ligatures, and it remained sharp. Currently I play on a Vandoren 5RV Lyre Mouthpiece with a Rovner Ligature on 3 1/2 Vandoren Paris Reeds. The technician wants to call Yamaha, because he's never seen anything like it. Yamaha will probaby want me to send it away, but I need it for some concerts in January, and can't afford to be without it for that long. The clarinet has never given me any problems before, and I've been researching on the internet, and I can't find anyone who has had problems with the YCL34. The only things I know to do are to continue to pull my barrel out and adjust my embochure to the point where it feels unnatural to make it play in tune. Has anyone had any similar problems or any advice they can give me?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-12-27 20:18
Your technician has had you "try playing on different mouthpieces, different reeds, and different ligatures".
Has he had you try playing on another YCL34? Has he had anyone else play this instrument? Those are the only tests that will show whether it is this instrument that is defective.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Clarinet34
Date: 2003-12-27 21:17
My technician did have me play on another YCL34 that had been sitting in the store. I was only a little sharp on that one, and it also sounded significantly better than my YCL34. He did have a professional clarinet player play on my clarinet, and he got it to play in tune, but when the technician played on it , he was flat.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-12-27 22:06
If another clarinet player played your clarinet in tune without difficulty, chances are that your embouchure has shifted to where you are biting too much. Is that a possibility?
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Author: Clarinet34
Date: 2003-12-28 02:16
It could be possible, the only reason I could think of would be my retainer. It is just strange because it only started doing this a month ago, it's not noticeable to me that it shifted. But I tried to reduce my biting, and my lower register sounded a lot better when I played softer, but the middle register still sounds shrill.
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Author: nobbyclarke
Date: 2003-12-28 03:07
Do you still have the YCL20?
If so try that, and see if it helps your problem, also try the YCL20 barrel and mouthpiece on the 34.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-12-28 08:42
Do you play with your retainer in?
If you're biting, you're likely to go sharp.
If you've tried to reduce your biting, you may be putting insufficient air through the instrument, which will make it sharp.
If you're too worried about biting and air, you will probably tense up, which will make you sharp.
I'm guessing that the technician may not be a frequent clarinetist (though I could be wrong), which explains his flatness. Since the pro can get it into tune, I tend to side with Fred, in that you are making the sharpness problem.
I'm guessing you are sharp to a tuner set to A=440? What tuning are you used to in an ensemble (not what they start at, but what they end up playing)? Did you notice that your tuning is off in relation to the tuner or the ensemble? Have you confirmed this in both settings?
If your open G and A are especially sharp, I would label this an airstream problem, though for those notes you can add resonance fingerings to bring it down. When you adjust your embouchre, you are probably trying to loosen it up, and in the process likely are putting less air through, therefore actually getting a result counter (sharper) to your intentions.
Try this for an illustration: Play and hold a note with a tuner in front of you. Most likely, after a couple seconds the note will sustain anywhere from 3 to 20 cents flatter than it started. This is because you allow the airstream to settle and the note to resonate, pinching the reed less and vibrating it more, which brings the pitch down to its natural (no pun intended) level. With experience, you can lessen/eliminate this momentary sharpness, but if you exert too much effort into "sharpness reduction" your notes may never settle, and you may be "playing sharp" on your instrument.
Sharpness as a quality of quiet playing and low air is unique to the clarinet... most other instruments get flat as the airstream declines.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-12-28 09:40
if you are playing with your retainer in, then it could be decreasing the size of your oral cavity and sharpening/focusing the pitch/tone in a manner similar to the "high tongue position" encouraged by most good teachers (except, squeezing the air from above rather than below).... this would affect the short tube notes disproportionately and explain why G and A are so sharp.
of course this is just conjecture.
Another possibility- the bore in the Barrel and/or top joint has been changed by extreme weather (very cold, very dry?). Both a swelling and/or shrinking can do this.
As and example- the "bottom of the top joint" or my R13 Bflat clarinet went oval and shrunk slightly. Francois Kloc was able to ream the bore (expert knowledge and skill sadly all too rare) and noticibly improve the tone and intonation on my clarinet.
hope that this was helpful
(DO try other clarinets to see if it's YOU or the clarinet)
donald nicholls
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-12-28 19:03
hmmm, sorry about the typos in my last posting (late at night), i know it sounds a bit odd- both shrinking and swelling can constrict the bore... i'm sure someone out there can give a better explanation for this than me, but it really can happen to a wooden instrument.
d
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Author: Clarinet34
Date: 2004-01-06 01:25
It's been several weeks now, and my technician contacted Yamaha today and talked to one of their clarinet technicians, and they presented us with two options. (First of all, I believe that my embochure has shifted, due to the fact that I use a rubber strip on my mouthpiece to protect it from getting "bite marks" in it when I play. I took it off, and my instrument wasn't as sharp) The first option was to send it away to Yamaha, and have one of their clarinet technicians bore it out, which apparently brings the pitch down. The second option was to order a longer barrel. I believe that I'm currently playing on a 66 mm and they're looking for a 67 1/2 mm barrel. The Yamaha tech has seen this type of problem before. Does anyone know if there is another way to prevent my mouthpiece from getting "bite marks"? Which option would you recommend that I take to fix my clarinet? I'm leaning towards ordering a longer barrel, but I'd like some more opinions. Thanks.
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Author: ChrisC
Date: 2004-01-06 02:06
Are you using a plastic mouthpiece? Hard rubber mouthpieces shouldn't become deformed due to pressure from the teeth.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-01-06 02:16
Does anyone know if there is another way to prevent my mouthpiece from getting "bite marks"?
Yes. You could switch to a double lip embouchure.
A longer barrel is something you can try with no risk, other than the price of the barrel; boring out the clarinet is irreversible and could have undesirable side effects. Thereforefore, if it were mine, I would try the longer barrel before (reluctantly) getting major surgery on the clarinet. But I would also want a second opinion from another repair technician.
Good luck,
Hans
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-01-06 08:37
Have you tried a variety of reeds? Some play sharper than others. Does the sharpness stay constant over the entire dynamic range, or does it go flatter when louder? Is it consistently sharp or is the intonation now more uneven than it was at the beginning?
If the last question is answered: yes; and the tuning does not shift markedly depending on the dynamic, then I have the feeling it has probably warped. However, as the throat notes are the ones that are sharpest, a long barrell may well be the answer, as long as you don't feel that the tone has been worsened since purchase, which you seem to suggest may have happened.
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2004-01-06 14:50
can you play without the retainer?
if you can what are the results?
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: Clarinet34
Date: 2004-01-06 15:37
I do play on a hard rubber mouthpiece. I agree, I would rather try out a long barrel before having the instrument bored out. The sharpness is consistent in every register, and the tone on the instrument has worsened since I purchased it a year ago. It is likely that the instrument could have warped. I think I tried playing my clarinet once with my retainer in, and I didn't like it, so I've never played with my retainer in, it just felt really weird, and I'm not supposed to have my retainer in 24/7 anymore.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-01-07 09:48
I have been repairing quite a number of these lately. Most of them are round 3 to 5 years of age. My observations are:-
Poor voicing. These horns are padded, out of the factory, with pads that are totally wrong. (Qualification: I am in Australia and generally service horns made for this market) The YCL 34's I see have factory fitted skin pads with a flat face. This leads to a very open blowing horn that tends to play on the up side of the pitch. This compares with the 600, 800, C and A series which are all padded with pointy faced leather pads. When re-padded with leather the YCL 34 intonation improves markedly although they feel a little tighter. There are also quality issues viz a vis key opening height which also affects intonation.
Corrosion. Corrosion affects the pivot screws and drill rods on the 34 more than other Yamaha horns. The G# or A throat rods and the right hand side keys are particularly susceptible.
Drying. The wood in these horns, again those in the market with which I deal, are very susceptible to drying especially at the tenon ends. This may explain your problems as the instrument warms and cools. The wood is poorly seasoned and heavily stained!
Springs. The Eb/Ab, F/C springs are very short and do not hold tension leaving the Eb/Ab key susceptible to leakage under pressure. this will also have an effect over intonation.
Loose register tubes and thumb tubes. Probably related to wood drying. When the horn is cold it will play sharp because of the leaks but as it warms the tubes expand and tighten sealing the leaks. Let Yamaha deal with it but demand a replacement horn for the duration. They have the money to do this! Try the new 250's, they are unbelievable. Ask any tech.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-01-07 15:28
"Try the new 250's, they are unbelievable. Ask any tech...."
Are you being sarcastic or not?
I am disappointed with the rather insecure attachment of the posts to the body. Although the posts are threaded they seem to be either moulded into a very cheesy plastic, or forced into the soft plastic with some adhesive to attempt to secure them. The result that I have encountered is slight wobble, which I regard as unforgivable for especially the upper post of E/B.
It reminds me of the three dreadful A's - Artley, Armstrong, and Accord, which often have wobbling posts moulded into the body.
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Author: bobmester
Date: 2004-01-07 21:18
Clarinet34 -
I use the exact same equipment. YCL34, 5RV Lyre, Rovner. I thought I had a problem similar to yours but I have been practicing using a tuner and it seems most of the problem was in my embouchure. I also worked at awareness of the volume of air going into the mouthpiece (and practicing blowing harder than usual) and this helped also. I really don't think I have the problem any more and I continue to use the tuner in my practice sessions. Before this, I used to pull the barrel out and any other trick I could find. I don't do that any more.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-01-08 01:55
Of course I am being sarcastic. The 250's have a numebr of real problems. Pads, artificial, falling out because they have insufficient glue, crows foot just about unadjustable so that LH B is unplayable without RH C. The list goes on. I just got another 250 and my other favourite the 275 alto sax into the workshop this morning. Urgghh!
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Author: Clarinet34
Date: 2004-01-09 02:57
I wish I could send my clarinet to you! Thank you so much for suggesting some things that could possibly be wrong with it. I've been so frustrated because nobody can tell me what is or could be wrong with it. All they want to do now is get me a longer barrel or bore it out. Apparantly, Yamaha is considering my instrument still under warranty, which is good. I would like Yamaha to fix the instrument, and not just give me a barrel and the problem comes up again in another year or so. Should I ask that Yamaha fix the horn and not send me that barrel? A professional clarinet is still several years down the road, and this one needs to last for at least four more years. I'll know from my repair technician Monday what Yamaha wants to do about it, so I want to know what I want to do with my clarinet.
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Author: Bob Schwab
Date: 2004-01-09 13:13
Maybe you could tell Yamaha that you're dissatisfied with the instrument and that instead of merely replacing it with another one like it you'd like to apply the credit to a new one such as the YCL-450. Just a thought.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-01-09 14:32
Bob Schwab: I understand that a YCL-450 is essentially a wooden YCL-250.
If it turns out that the keywork of the YCL-450 has the same problems Mark Pinner describes for the 250, and the wood has the problems he describes for the YCL-34, maybe this is not such a great idea.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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