 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-15 22:46
Aside from the ramifications of overblowing more than an octave (I'm thinking the break) ... most composers of orchestral music seem to centre (for obvious reasons) their melodies at that point. Afterall - it's in the middle of the stave (sort of) and, therefore in a place where a tune sits nicely.
What composers do you really hate for just writting music that is plain ugly and difficult to perform (given they are creating an effect). My number one vote for awkward is Richard Strauss ... closely followed by Maurice Ravel.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-16 13:43
My first vote is for San Saans' "Dance Macabre". The 1st clarinet part can be looked at as a technical exercise in crossing the break back and forth. This was played by the school band that I worked with, grades 7 and 8 kids trying to play this part was pretty challenging. But it certainly helped get the fingers coordinated when playing at that speed! After that experience, other pieces were a breeze.
The other piece is one we're playing in our Clarinet Choir, the Gypsy Dance from Carmen, the 2nd clarinet part. It has that section of 16th notes that go from a C, Bb, Ab, Bb three times in a row, and we all know how fast a gypsy dance goes. Our 1st players don't want to even see that part. But the rest of the 2nd clarinet part redeems it, we've got the neat accompaniment for the 2nd half of the piece.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-16 20:07
Brenda, I love your phonetic spelling of the illustrious Frenchman's name ...
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-16 20:44
Diz - OK, I stand corrected. How about Saint-Saens, with two little dots above the e? That's how one reference work spells it. At least we paid attention to the notes and learned to cross the break awfully fast to play for that school concert.
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-12-16 21:35
I believe many orchestra and band clarinetists (especially transcriptions) would generally agree some of John Williams' music can be deceivingly difficult, even down right HARD in isolated spots.
More than once during reading sessions, I can recall cruising along in a seemingly "commercial haze" then suddenly hit a brick wall of wild and flurrying, finger twisting, pattern-less obbligato 16ths (that make perfect musical sense being there). And, they can indisputably ruin your day if you're not on your toes! v/r Ken
Post Edited (2003-12-16 22:42)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-17 03:56
By the way, Brenda, when diz says he loves something, he isn't being sarcastic -- he's serious.
As for the Gypsy Dance, have you tried keeping it in the throat area by using the upper side ("trill") keys? Might be a bit easier and could even sound more uniform, too.
Regards,
John
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-17 04:03
John ... Brenda knows me VERY well ... at least as well as anyone who is on the other side of the globe!
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-17 10:46
John, that might work. I think I've tried that over the couple of years that we've performed it and I'll have to remind myself why I'm not doing it now. Being the 2nd part, the bad intonation of the side C won't make a great deal of difference. If you remember the Gypsy Dance, it has that series of three similar sequences right at the beginning, and for the 2nd clarinets the first sequence is a breeze but gets progressively nastier with each section. So the worst fingering is in that third sequence. The biggest problem is whether I can remember to use the side fingering after those two other times. You reminded me, and I'll give it a good college try during practice. I showed this section to my teacher a while back, and I remember that he didn't have much sympathy for me. It's just one of those things I have to learn to do. The problem is probably in how much I rotate my left hand between the Bb and the Ab.
It's true, Diz and I give each other a hard time all the time. That's the trouble with the written word, it sometimes doesn't convey the true intent since the tone of voice isn't there. That's OK, he sent me back to the books. My problem is that I'm thinking in Spanish, and "Saint" is "San", very close to the French pronunciation (at least to my ear - my daughter tells me that I butcher French, although here in Canada I've learned enough written French to do the entire grocery shopping without having to turn the packages to the English side).
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-17 15:40
Brenda: I am no role model for playing, but I use the upper side keys often to avoid "crossing over." Sorry to hear that your instrument won't give you a good C with the "magic 4" upper keys. I've been told that shouldn't be done, those keys are just for trills. Huh? If they provide good tones, why not use them? And if they don't provide good tones, why use them at all, and why are they there? MOO. What brand are you playing?
Of course I was joking about diz. He doesn't really love anything except his family.
Regards,
John
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-17 17:16
John, looks like you're one of Diz's close, personal friends to be able to say that! That gave me a good laugh here at work. Just wait till he reads your post. Ooooh, boy!
I'm playing (sorry about this guys) a Buffet R13. It's 8 years old now, been completely overhauled about a year ago, the pads seal wonderfully and has a great rich tone, (especially after switching reeds to Zonda, mouthpiece to a B40, and the ligature to Optimum). That's why I love to play it, because it sounds so good. But the throat notes have always had that throat-note sound. I've just lived with this problem after hearing that it's common with clarinets. The side C doesn't really match the intonation of the long C. But in this context nobody would ever know because it whips by so fast. Is this something that I shouldn't have to put up with? Maybe there's hope.
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2003-12-17 17:26
So, ladies and gentlemen you all agree that the music of the composers you have listed is, as Liz posed her question: music that is plain ugly.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-17 17:41
While the sound is certainly not going to be the same betwen a throat C and Clarion C, the intonation should be spot on. If not, an excellent technician (extraordinary, that is) could improve the situation by altering the tone hole(s) appropriately. Especially on an otherwise excellent Clarinet, it's sad to have a key that won't produce proper pitch. If Bb is good with second side-key and throat A key, then the only mod required should be the top hole.
And I'm not usually a close, personal guy at all. I only write my opinions and what I believe is true. 
Sorry to hijack your thread, diz. I shut up now.
Regards,
John
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-17 18:50
I'll definitely have those keys/tone holes looked at. That's something I wouldn't have known to ask a tech to look at. Thanks for your input!
Now, there must be other rough composers for clarinet parts besides those whom we've mentioned.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-12-17 23:45
I love Shostakovich's symphonies, but having heard and seen what the woodwinds have to do, I don't think I'll be taking part. Has anyone played the eefer in his Tenth?
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2003-12-18 01:28
I'm reminded of that part in the Rondo of Mozart's K 622 that goes over the break, every other note being third space C, and the others being in the throat register, or lower. At least that's how it is in most scores and the countless recordings I've heard.
I studied a Carl Fisher transcription of it as a teen, since that's what was required for us high schoolers at the time, and it wiped out the problem by putting the line an octave below, where it could, down to low E. A recording I've heard was similarly played on the basset horn, and it had a low C.
Post Edited (2003-12-22 02:36)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-18 02:54
on a basset clarinet it was down the octave ... although this is a little anecdotal as no manuscript survives (GBK - correct me if I'm wrong please). Also there was speculation about this concert originally being composed in G major ... not sure of the veracity of that, however.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-18 03:23
Lisa said:
> A recording I've heard was similarly played on the basset horn, and it had a low C.
Basset clarinet, not basset horn ...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-18 03:35
Just to clear up some of the confusion about the origins of the Mozart Concerto, this is an excerpt from Keith Koons' article. The full text can be found here:
http://www.clarinet.org/Research/1998/Koons.htm
"To understand why there are so many editions, some background is in order. The autograph score, Mozart's final product, has been lost. He finished the work in the fall of 1791, and it is assumed that Anton Stadler, the Viennese clarinetist and basset horn player for whom Mozart wrote the concerto, performed it in Prague in October 1791. After Mozart's death, Stadler took the piece on his concert tour of Europe and Russia. Recent research by Pamela Poulin has discovered the earliest documented performance of the concerto in Riga, Latvia in 1794.1 In 1801, the work was published by the three firms of André, Sieber, and Breitkopf & Härtel. However, these publications were not identical to the original: An 1802 review of the work stated that it was originally written for a special A clarinet extended to play to low C.2 An anonymous hand had arranged and edited the original, changing low register passages so that it would be playable by a normal A clarinet. All that remains from Mozart's hand is 199 bars of an early sketch of the work featuring basset horn in G as the solo instrument. Known as K. 621b, this sketch is reproduced as part of the Neue Mozart Ausgabe volume for the clarinet concerto.3 A more detailed account of the concerto's composition and publication may be found in the excellent book, Mozart: Clarinet Concerto, by Colin Lawson.4
Several editions have been made with the basset clarinet in mind, attempting to restore the missing low register passages. The name "basset clarinet" has been given to a clarinet extended to low C. Modern basset clarinets are currently available from several major instrument manufacturers." ...GBK
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2003-12-18 03:36
diz,
Your merriment amuses me. 
Serious question: Don't you hate to play that part I'm refering to, going over the break like that? Is that the preferred/standard way to perform that passage?
Post Edited (2003-12-22 02:37)
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2003-12-18 03:39
Anton Stadler, the Viennese clarinetist and basset horn player for whom Mozart wrote the concerto, performed it in Prague in October 1791
I KNEW I heard the term basset horn somewhere. So is that the name of the period instrument, while we call clarinets with a low C extension basset clarinets now?
Post Edited (2003-12-22 03:57)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-18 03:45
Lisa - yes, of course I know the passage you're talking about ... on a "normal" clarinet it's just plain ugly ... do yourself a favour and purchase a basset clarinet ... if you can't afford one, you can always send your lower joint off to Stephen Fox (Canada) and he'll Basseterize it for you ... he's a sponsor of this board.
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Author: lyn
Date: 2003-12-18 10:54
Stravinsky. Ugh. Don't mind listening to it on recordings. But to play it? SCREEEEEEEEECH!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like I want to say, wasn't the clarinet made for better things than THIS? Aren't these picc parts? Besides, I hear that every time my students start playing above high D.
I have, however, played eefer on the Shostakovich 5th - also a screechy thing, but at least it has personality!
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Author: lyn
Date: 2003-12-18 10:55
Stravinsky. Ugh. Don't mind listening to it on recordings. But to play it? SCREEEEEEEEECH!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like I want to say, wasn't the clarinet made for better things than THIS? Aren't these picc parts? Besides, I hear that every time my students start playing above high D.
I have, however, played eefer on the Shostakovich 5th - also a screechy thing, but at least it has personality!
~L
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-18 11:54
Hi Brenda,
I do not kow the passage you are referring to but when I think about those notes, I automatically think about keeping the RH with C/F on during the whole passage. If you are doing that already, the trill key approach is probably the best. But if not, the whole passage can be played with thumb and first finger LH as the moving fingers. Don't get too "wristy."
HRL
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-18 15:47
Hank - That's a good description of it, "wristy". Another of our pieces, "Arrival of the Queen of Sheba", has a different combination of notes in that same throat & crossing the break area, and the other 2nd player and I have a dickens of a time with that, but another player in our group doesn't. Unfortunately the 2nds are alone in that most difficult spot. So obviously it's in our technique, which we certainly will be spending some quality time to correct.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-18 16:06
Crossing the break killed me in Amporita Roca when I played bass clarinet. For the first part of the piece, it is very fast eigth notes to both hands over the register break, and then the left hand under the register. The notes switch every now and then but just think of a line similar to the end of Mozart with the G, C, A, C, G, C, F, C, E, C, C (lower), C then again. It's very similar on the bass clarinet, but probably ten times as long doing this.
Needless to say there were a few times when my fingers literally cramped up from all that crossing the break. However I'm not really that skilled and a part of the dificulty was because I would get tense with the speed and use a lot of finger pressure. I'm sure if I stayed a little more "loose" it'd be easier.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-18 20:28
Arrival of the Queen of Sheba ??? no clarinets in that score, last time I looked anyhow, obviously a transcription (shudder).
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-20 09:50
Lisa wrote: "'Anton Stadler, the Viennese clarinetist and basset horn player for whom Mozart wrote the concerto, performed it in Prague in October 1791'
"I KNEW I heard the term basset horn somewhere. So is that the name of the period instrument, while we call clarinets with a low C extension basset clarinets now?"
Although the Koons article refers to Stadler as "clarinetist and basset horn player," this does not necessarily mean that Stadler played the K622 on either of those instruments. As you noticed, there is uncertainty surrounding even the year and location of the first performance. Most presume that he played it on an A Clarinet extended to reach written low C, an instrument which has been called "basset clarinet" since somewhere around the 1950s (as I recall).
It is remarkably curious that the K622 marks this Clarinet as a useful instrument, but it has never had other significant music written for it.
Regards,
John
who was there (no, not the first performance of the K622, I mean the 1950s
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-20 14:20
JMcAulay wrote:
> It is remarkably curious that the K622 marks this Clarinet as a
> useful instrument, but it has never had other significant music
> written for it.
It was more common at that time to have instruments custom made; the keywork was significantly simpler, and the mass market just wasn't there. Therefore, having a "one of a kind" instrument was not the extraordinary thing that it would be today, and having music written for this instrument if one were a great musician would naturally follow - the music ended up being written for a specific instrument.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-22 01:58
John, Thanks for your reminder - I gave the side keys a try (again) a few days ago on the "Gypsy Dance - Carmen" part and reminded myself why that wasn't a good option, actually not an option at all. It's just the combination of notes that makes it impossible. A fourth line Db is played right after that third sequence, so if I end that sequence with a side C instead of a long C it would be impossible to achieve that Db at the speed we're going. That particular section of the music is just a beast to play and just has to be performed the best we can, period. The only consolation is that it IS the 2nd part, all the other clarinets are playing there including our great bass & contra players, so the awkwardness doesn't stick out as much as it could.
The only reason I won't give up the second clarinet part is because the latter half has the really neat "echoing" that's completely exposed, it's easy to play, and it's all ours! Everyone else wants that part.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-22 03:50
Brenda, of course "four pieces" and "reflections" for clarinet ensemble don't have ANY nasty over the break awkward moments ... do they!!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-22 06:41
Brenda, thanks for the input. Yes, a Db tossed in there would make things a bit tough.
But do check on the intonation with those upper side keys. They might come in handy some time for playing "real" tones, not just ornaments.
Regards,
John
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