 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-14 08:21
As I've been repeatedly told, anyone not playing Buffet 'doesn't get a job'. I wonder though, if an audition is screened, how will they tell? Obviously the clarinetist may be up themselves enough to claim they can tell the difference, however I don't believe that for a second. And say a Leblanc player DID get a job in a major orchestra, would the conductor and other non-clarinet members know or ever care what the clarinetist played on? And if non-Buffet playing people are in auditions and don't get the job supposedly because they play Leblanc or other unacceptable non-Buffet instruments, are they eligible to file a lawsuit for discrimination? So to my point, do you really care what someone plays on as long as someone is a great clarinetist and musician?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-12-14 09:30
In my orchestra 3 of us play Buffet, one plays Wurlitzer German system, and the other Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm. We don't have any problems blending or playing in tune with one another. Not one conductor has ever commented on anything to do with us playing different systems. Neither have any of our colleagues on other instruments. Even Karl Leister, after hearing our performance of 'Siegrfied' was shocked to hear that I played on Buffet and my colleague played on Wurlitzer. I would imagine that blending bettwen Leblanc, Buffet or other Boehm system clarinets would be even less of a problem.
Not all orchestras are so open-minded though. My applications to audition for orchestras in Holland and Germany have been turned down because I play Boehm system. Would they be able to hear it from behind a screen? I doubt it!
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-12-14 09:47
The players in the CHicago SYmphony all play different models I believe, and seem to manage just fine. I have heard of people not getting the job supposedly because they don't play the same brand as the principal player plays on, but I doubt they would actually admit to such a reason...therefore not allowing them to file a lawsuit.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-14 09:49
Apparently both Larry Combs and Ricardo Morales both got their jobs on Buffet, THEN changed to Leblanc.
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-12-14 14:01
Maybe they are like pro-golfers, playing the "clubs" the endorser's pay the most for. Cynical? Yeah, I gesss.
Bob A
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Author: RM
Date: 2003-12-14 15:07
I would say that you can win a job playing on anything; if it sounds good it will win. However, there are a lot of shallow minded people out there, even in the big groups that COULD give you problems. I for one do not play on Buffets, I've found something better. I believe that the mouthpiece makes a bigger difference in sound quality than anything, Buffets all sound so different from one to another anyway.
My attitude was once to use Buffets in auditions, but now I feel that you should sound your best, but more importantly, PLAY ON WHAT IS MOST COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. If the audition panel gives me hassle about not using Buffets, hell with them. A good panel will hear good musicianship and talent, and will give the candidate the chance to prove themselves. But then again this is the US, seems all panels are interested in are machines, so let me rephrase; play everything PERFECT, musicianship not required, and they will hire you. Very sad times we're in.
I would encourage all the young players to try different brands of horns. Pick what you feel is best for you. Hopefully the next generation of clarinetists does not inherit the Buffet syndrome.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-12-14 17:56
Not only are conductors and auditioners often "narrow minded" in their selective process in snubbing musicians who do not play "politically correct" equipement, but so are fellow musicians. At my almater, the resident woodwind quintet--consisting of faculty wind specialists--would not let my old clarinet professor play with the ensemble unless he used his Buffet clarinets. This was in the early ninties after he had recently purchased the (then) new LeBlanc Opus clarinet. The quintet--which included a former Chicago Symphony Orchestra bassoonist--took one look at his new clarinet, noticed hat the Buffet logo was missing, and immediantely proclaimed the "new sound" to be substandard and unacceptable. He accepted the judgement of the group and played his old Buffet, but played his Opus everywhere else--and sounded just fine! He retired from teaching one year later, sold his Buffets and now plays LeBlancs exclusively--but then, he is not audioning for any new playing or teaching positions and plays only when and where he wants to. Ah yes, the independence that retirement also brings...............
But I think that those of you that are still "looking", as in the business world, if you really want the job, you wear a coat and tie to the interview and dress to impress. If the auditioners want Buffet--or anything else--don't show up with your "whatever" matched set. Play what they want, how they want and look (dress) the way they want their winning candidate to look. Play the political game with as many advantages as you can. Then, after you win the job, you can attempt to change the rules to suite your own playing pleasure--that is, if "they" will let you.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-14 20:10
As one who auditions - I don't care WHAT instrument is used so long as it's a) played in tune and b) played with intelligence ... any technical ability is regarded as a prerequisite in my book.
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2003-12-14 21:35
I want to pose a few a questions for all.
When was the last time a person playing leblanc has won an audition. A lot of people can name people who now play on leblanc, but they were already established. Many players tried leblanc and then left them, such as Klug, Morales (who now plays on festival).
See. I feel that there is a difference in sound. I am not going to dismiss something because it doesn't have a buffet logo on it. What sound comes out is the most important. If leblancs clarinets produce a sound taht in even in blind auditions doesn't pass the test, then that says something.
I am getting rather sick of people saying its abou tthe logos. It's about the horns and how they play. Majority of people (in the US) prefer the buffet sound and style. You can argue it all you want but its a fact.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-12-15 04:53
"When was the last time a person playing leblanc has won an audition"
Why don't we broaden this? It always seems to be about Buffet/LeBlanc. WHat about Selmer and Yamaha.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-15 05:37
LeOpus1190s wrote: "I am getting rather sick of people saying its abou tthe logos. It's about the horns and how they play. Majority of people (in the US) prefer the buffet sound and style. You can argue it all you want but its a fact."
Two questions:
Which "people" do you mean?
How have you determined what is "fact"?
Thanks and regards,
John
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2003-12-15 07:00
john -
For example, most of the major symphonies in the country. I know there are always exceptions but for the most part, you will find people play buffet. You will also find at the finer universities for clarinet (there is always the exception, such as depaul which is a great school and use leblanc) that the majority of the professors prefer buffet, thus the students will prefer them as well.
look around at what people play. Then you can establish the fact for yourself like I have for myself.
hope this helps
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-12-15 14:05
"When was the last time a person playing leblanc has won an audition."
But since the majority of the players out there use Buffet, the odds are that most every player walking in the door is using Buffet. So any statistics don't mean much in that regard. Besides, the really great players can play on anything and still win the job. It is their playing that makes the instrument what it is, not the other way around.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-12-15 14:54
Just to offer another "tidbite" to this thread, a couple of years ago, I was in contact with a New York City professional clarinetist regarding an R13 A clarinet. During the course of our conversations (email), this clarinetist--who was a working Broadway musician--said that he loved the way the LeBlanc Opus and Copncerto clarinets played--and would play them himself--but "the people I play with demand the Buffet sound". This is just one working clarinetists observation of the NYC clarineting "scene"--but he thought it to be an important factor (playing Buffet) in his ability to secure work in the highly competative "Big Apple" venue.
(BTW, my "contact" was not our good NYC friend JM nor our old friend, Hat. It was someone else who shall remain unidentified)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-12-15 15:22
The Chicago clarinet section, with Combs playing Leblanc, Yeh playing Yamaha and Smith playing Buffet, is the best proof that these days, the brand name makes little difference.
Years ago, however, it made a big difference. My first flute teacher had a wonderful Powell she got from her teacher when he joined the Cleveland Orchestra. Maurice Sharp played a gold Haynes, so everyone else had to play Haynes, too. Similarly, in the 1950s, all the clarinetists in the Boston Symphony played Selmer. When Gino Cioffi retired and Harold Wright came in playing Buffet, they switched to Buffets, though I think that mostly came through retirement.
It can still make a political difference. I recall that there was an uprising of German players a year or two ago when a professor who played a Boehm clarinet was appointed to the Hochschule für Musik.
Sometimes the instruments from different makers are far enough apart that they really can't work together. The Buffet bassoon, still played in a few French orchestras, has a different bore, a different fingering system, and a very different tone from the Heckel. I doubt that the two could work together.
The Vienna Philharmonic has its own instruments. Their oboe, for example, sounds very different from the Lorrée. Also, the A in Vienna is almost a quarter step above 440.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2003-12-15 15:31
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are they eligible to file a lawsuit for discrimination? So to my point, do you really care what someone plays on as long as someone is a great clarinetist and musician?
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*I'm not a lawyer or an expert in law*
You could take them to court, and they could outright admit that they didn't hire you because of your choice of equipment, and you'd still lose.
Actually, more likely, the thing would happen is that the lawsuit would be dismissed outright as there is no real legal basis for it, as I understand it. Discrimination is very particular: Discrimination based on Race, Colour, Creed, etc are all particular cases of discrimination that are illegal. There is nothing in law that says they can't discriminate based on equipment choice.
-JfW
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-12-15 15:38
Here, one player plays Buffet and the other 2 Yamaha (sop) with the bass & piccolo being Selmer.
One player has just started the job and in the audition process the make of instrument was never noticed or discussed.
jez
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-15 15:46
The Selmer 9 player in our orchestra has an R-13 player on either side of him, so he gets both the Buffet sound and the Buffet sales pitch from both of us.
He is slowly weakening. It's just a matter of time...GBK
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-12-15 16:11
"When Gino Cioffi retired and Harold Wright came in playing Buffet, they switched to Buffets, though I think that mostly came through retirement."
I believe that Cardillo played Selmer clarinets until his retirement, maybe someone knows for sure.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-15 16:41
LeOpus1190s, maybe I wasn't specific enough when asking about "people." Who in the symphonies do you mean? The Clarinet sections? The management? Those who judge auditions? The conductors? True, in the US, most symphonic Clarinetists play Buffet. That's not in doubt. I.m still wondering exactly why.
Just because most such players select Buffet does not make the "Buffet sound and style" the reason. For all I know, it may be because they think the logo is cute, or for some other reason such as a manifestation of the herd instinct. Some students speak of Buffet with such adulation, it's as if they were talking about the latest style of Nike footwear.
My real problem with all this is that I have never seen a genuine properly-conducted survey of symphony players, attempting to find out why each plays his/her specific instrument. If a significant number of them should report, "I play Buffet because it's the only way I could get this job" (as implied by some posters) then surely something is dreadfully wrong. Other than actually *knowing* what's going on, all this is sheer speculation.
When I last visited the place, every one of the hundreds of cars in the parking lot of a certain Country Club in the Los Angeles area was either a Mercedes Benz or a Cadillac. No other marque was driven there by members. It's really hard for me to be convinced that this was because of technical superiority.
I am neither pro- nor anti-Buffet. I am, however, opposed to any slavish adherence to some fad. To many players, Buffet makes the best. To a significant number of others, they do not. Posters have noted that "blending" is generally the supposed driving force behind the concept of having every player in an orchestra use identical Clarinets. But it has been noted that, mirabile, this does not appear to be necessary. The Buffet and Wurlitzer Clarinets mentioned above are about as different as you can get. So? What does all this mean? Beats me. Except it doesn't appear to mean that the Buffet "sound and style," fine though they may be, are all that uniquely wonderful.
Regards,
John
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-15 17:48
If Buffet were really the be-all-end-all, orchestral programs would read Principal Buffet, Assistant Principal/Eb Buffet, 2nd Buffet, Bass Buffet.
We've whipped this dead horse countless times, so let's ride it around the block one more time. What constantly gets missed in all these discussions is that there are plenty of Buffets that are mediocre at best and awful at their worst. There are so many randomizing factors (the wood, the machining, the hand tooling, climate/environmental, pads, adjustments) that you simply cannot make blanket assessments of an entire brand good or bad.
The beauty of it all is that clarinets, relatively speaking, are cheap (price out a flute or an English Horn and you'll get the picture), and plentiful. Variety is the spice of life, and there are lots of wonderful sounding instruments to be found in all brands. It so happens that Buffet, when you find a good one, has qualities that happen to align well with the (American) aesthetic for the clarinet and are widely recognized for those qualities. As such, they tend to be the standard-bearer. That doesn't mean there is some vast right-wing clarinet conspiracy that extends to orchestral auditions -- rather it just reflects that somebody has to be the market leader, and that somebody is Buffet.
As SWK points out, audition panels award jobs based on whether you've got the technical proficiency, the musicality, and the tonality/sonority they are looking for. Great clarinetists select the right tool to achieve his own (and his employer's) vision of beautiful clarinet sound. If a player finds a Selmer, Yamaha, or Framistan 2000 that fits the aesthetic and he/she has the talent to deliver, the engraving on the bell is not going to determine the audition outcome.
And no, you can't sue the Buffet mafia for discrimination. You have to get them on ancillary charges like mail fraud, wire fraud, and (drumroll, please) RICO charges. Yes, thank you very much. I'll be here all week.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-15 20:24
Cheap - no wind instrument is expensive (even golden flutes) compared to the cost of 17th "known brand" century string instruments ... $8000 was the cost of my bow - and that was in 1982, I hate to think what it's worth now.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-15 21:25
It's great to have such diversity of opinions expressed. Too bad so many opinions are identified as facts.
Regards,
John
absurd and ridiculous
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Author: William
Date: 2003-12-15 22:54
" When Gino Cioffi retired and Harold Wright came in playing Buffet, they switched to Buffets, though I think that mostly came through retirement."
Hmm....according to a local clarinetist who studied with Gino, he sold her his set of clarinets when he retired, and they were Buffets. (Or am I reading the sentence wrong?)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-15 23:03
From Sherman Friedland's site:
"Prior to then, Buffet, a fine clarinet was always the choice of the symphony player, and Selmer was the only choice in the Boston Symphony Orchestra, which at that time was easily the best playing and the best paid orchestra in the US.
But the clarinet had nothing to do with it. It happened that in Boston Gino Cioffi, the principal there played Selmer clarinets, all his students did and the players in the section followed suit. But literally every other US orchestra was a "Buffet" orchestra, if you will. "
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-16 00:00
Someone, I have not suggested that you retract any adjectives or other parts of speech.
Furthermore, challenging your statements is not my intent, because you have such high internal certainty that you are accurate, even though many of your comments are based on what you consider "knowledge," although I consider it to be anecdotal comments that you have picked up. Experience. Hardly a scientific way, if you will, to determine any complex human actions with certainty.
However, some of your comments leave me a bit amazed. For example, "If you did your rediculous survey you would discover that people play Buffet clarinets because generally they are excellent." Then why do any top Clarinetists play anything else? Is nothing else generally excellent also? Why do younger Clarinetists who do not have extensive experience choose Buffet? It is curious to me that you "know" what would be discovered, solely out of your own experience.
As for the similarity between practices of various groups in their selections of prioducts, either for professional or personal use, the psychology behind such selections is well known, if one cares to look into it. And no, your statement in that matter needs no explanation at all. The expression of your position offers quite good understanding of just how you think.
Regards,
John
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-16 13:31
This topic area could even be interesting (in a nerdish kind of way) but the coverage it gets seems so "one track". I ask all those who know, as a person who has never played on a big 4 instrument (bar my basset horn), is there anything in the current models/brands which qualitatively distinguishes one from the other? Such as one projecting very well, as compared to another being able to integrate very well in chamber music. Or one having an especially good altissimo register, while another is great for lower register. One being ideal for a second clarinet, another great if you do multiphonics. Any ideas on these kinds of differences may help some of us to work out why a player would pick one or the other. Otherwise there seems to be no good reason at all, apart from inertia.
Here is a parallel. I play in a very good amateur orchestra. It is a priviliege to play in it. The other two regular clarinet players both play on Vandoren reeds (by the by they also both play on R13s). I do not. I have suggested to them every time they complain that Vandorens are now hopeless etc etc, that they try, Zonda, or Glotin, or Marca, or Vintage, or anything else for that matter. The following week they return with a new box of Vandorens. They have not tried the alternatives. I can think of no other reason than inhibitions on their part for not at least trying the alternatives. Of course they feel that the situation is critical. They would rather not risk one bad rehearsal playing on an unknown quantity. On the state of the evidence presented in this thread so far, I think this probably applies re Buffets.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-16 14:23
John,
First, as "Someone Who Knows Someone Who Knows", let me say that he speaks not from anecdote, but from live experience with many of the finest clarinetists in the world, of which he happens to be one. His statements aren't by any means quantitatively derived, but his experience is comprehensive enough that his observations can be accepted as empirical.
Top clarinetists don't exclusively play Buffet, and nobody has claimed that.
As I, SWK and others pointed out previously, there are other options of equally high quality, and they are indeed played in great ensembles or solo. Buffets happen to be imbued with qualities preferred by a large percentage of those top players SWK mentions. At the level of the professional musician, we are not buying on base consumerism, but because we have selected an instrument that is "right" for what we are trying to achieve.
Your consumer behavior analogy does apply, but only to a limited extent when you widen the circle. For those who do not (yet) have the discerning skills to select the best for themselves, they take their lead from those whom they respect and admire -- teachers, icons, etc. Bjorn Bork used Prince rackets, Michael Jordan wore Nike shoes, Lidia Matticchio Bastianich uses Cuisinart cookware, and those who want to emulate them buy the same. Are they paid for their use/endorsement? Sure, but they wouldn't do it if it compromised their level of professional achievement. Is Mark Nuccio a paid Buffet clinician? Absolutely, but darn it all, listen to that man play.
In my own experience, students who have moved beyond buying their first honker are going to take the counsel of their teachers, or follow the lead of clarinetists they admire. That is part of the process of forming their own set of experiences so they can ultimately make their own judgement calls as they get better. Absent that guidance, how do they make that first, second or third horn choice?
If you do not agree with SWK's statements/opinions as an experienced professional, how about putting your proposed survey in the field. There are plenty of pros, amateurs, students and dabblers on this board. Ask them.
Cheerios,
M
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-16 16:50
msloss, thanks for a thoughtful post. As I do not know SWK, I will accept your comment that SWK is a truly superior Clarinetist who mingles with the finest instrumentalists and is the recipient of many comments which he has synthesized into his conclusions. But that doesn't make them accurate, as his synthesis attempts to conclude fact based upon a wide assortment of opinion expressed openly by a limited, albeit large, number of participants. In his time, Ptolemy was a marvelous observer of the heavens, and he developed a concept of astronomy which was accepted as true for centuries. It was also all wrong. Please understand, I do not accept as fact the conclusions of even a large number of close observers, no matter how adamantly supported, if those conclusions have the opportunity of taint from personal opinion. Especially when comments from others are simply accepted at face value.
The tendency for individuals to keep private their reasons for making purchases is well known. Chrysler Corporation found, around fifty years ago, that most people try to present themselves as being practical when asked why they made specific purchases. A much more in-depth study is required to determine their real reasons.
I do not necessarily disagree personally with SWKs observations. However, it is difficult to support them as totally factual. My argument in this matter is purely technical. It appears to be impossible to find even a few disinterested persons who have reached similar conclusions, and I suggest that a proper study of the situation would be the only way to establish what's real. I personally have neither the funds, time, nor sufficient interest in the subject to perform such a study as it should be done. Yes, I'm personally curious, but that's about it. If equivalent effort could determine The Meaning of Life, I would go for it somehow. Why Are Buffets the Most Popular Clarinets is hardly a subject for which the world has been waiting for an answer. But it is distressing to see personal conclusions identified as Facts coming from anyone who is, from a typical study protocol perspective, too close to the situation to make unbiased judgments.
Unfortunately, consumers in general routinely select inferior products for all the wrong reasons. I do not suggest that Buffet Clarinets are inferior, nor do professional Clarinetists, whom I admire and respect greatly for their abilities in their chosen field, have their heads unscrewed when buying Buffet instruments. But there are many reasons for purchasing any specific item, some of which are very hard to determine. I'm just questioning some things that are said, unconvinced that the answers are cast in concrete.
Thanks again for your comments.
Regards,
John
neither a symphony player nor a Buffet user
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-16 20:09
John, your bluntness is a nice change from the droll banter often found here.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2003-12-16 21:52
I was watching the LA Phil perform on PBS the other night and i was fascinated to see that there were both boehm and german system clarinets used, rotary and valved trumpets, as well as both german and french bowing employed by the basses. I guess it all comes down to how good you are and if you can produce the desired sound, regardless of setup.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-17 06:01
I was speaking today to a master's student at my college who is auditioning for a professional orchestra early next year, and he was basically saying that as long as you can play convincingly, it shouldn't matter what instrument you play on. I wish everyone else thought this way!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-17 06:40
How is it that auditioners can tell what instrument you play anyway? I've never been to an audition so I don't know but is it a field on a sheet that you fill out? "brand/model of instrument"? Or do auditioners tend to notice your logos on the clarinet? Or do they ask?
I'm wondering cause can't all this be combatted? I mean, you could turn your barrel around or cover the logo with something black, and do you have to answer if they ask what you're playing? My guess is if anything they'd ask at the end just as sort of a "I'm curious. What instrument do you have there?" setup. But then again, I don't see why they'd want to really ask questions unrelated to performance.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2003-12-17 07:30
I am sorry to say this. But for those who argue against the buffet mafia.. I feel perhaps there should be less arguing and go out and win a big audition with your non buffet clarinet. That will prove something other than just trying to complain about the sterotype.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-17 09:04
Quote:
I am sorry to say this. But for those who argue against the buffet mafia.. I feel perhaps there should be less arguing and go out and win a big audition with your non buffet clarinet. That will prove something other than just trying to complain about the sterotype. here's the thing. You have to factor in the number of clarinets auditioning on a buffet and compare that to the number of clarinets OTHER than buffet auditioning. So obviously there are gonna be more buffets picked cause there are more to choose from.
Other wordly example:
I attended a military school. There were strict guidelines for entry, and a physical fitness test. The boy/girl ratio was about 9:1 at the school. Why so low? Was it cause the recruiters were "sexist" and preferred boys? No. It's because a substantially larger number of boys attempted to get in than girls. And then after all the physical tests and weeding out there were just a lot more boys to choose from.
Some fake number crunching
So I guess in a perfect world, auditions would be won in a perfect ratio. That is to say, if there were five spots, and 40 buffets tried out, and 5 leblancs and 5 selmers/yamaha, that 4 of those five spots would be filled by buffet, 1 by "other". However, for every one excellent yamaha/selmer player, there are is one excellent leblanc players, and eight excellent buffets.
So for EVERY spot, there's an 80% chance that it will be filled by a buffet player. Pretty good odds, don't you think? And I don't know what the real ratio of buffet to nonbuffet is out there in music performance land, but that's just an example and I'm willing to bet it's fairly close to that distribution.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2003-12-17 21:22
Yes but if non buffet clarinets are so fantastic and better than buffet, then the top of the food chain would be consistently playing on them thus winning the auditions.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-17 21:24
Isn't this horse now thoroughly flogged to death?
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-12-17 22:05
Yes, I think we got the point, whatever it is, or was!
Henry
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-17 22:49
Flogged to death.
Thanks for a discussion that was nothing short of interesting and entertaining! Although no conclusions, I realise that some people are Buffet snobs, some aren't. I hope I never have to audition for them!
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Author: Michael G
Date: 2003-12-18 16:21
LeWhite:
You unlike many of the contributors on this board have never proved yourself in the profession? How many years playing in a pro orchestra have you had? How many years as a freelancer have you had, come to think of it, how many years have you had even in your own countries youth orchestra, even your cities? I am 99% sure that the answer to the folowing questions is zero! Not even one little pro gig to give you some confidence. Instead we put up with the ramblings of a cocky self sure 20 year old who thinks he understands everything through his experience playing average parts while studying at college level. While of course the point of the BB is that everybodies oppinion is valid, surely since we have beaten this topic so much, and you have been informed on more then one occaison in recent memory from players from your own country as to some very good reasons for the 'popular' brand of clarinet to be played by students in your country.
I am however not in your country and so I believe that all of us citizens of the rest of the world apart from those in Oz should really take a backward step and let our little clarinet friend from Oz sort this out with the Oz clarinet players. I do ask you a question however LeWhite. Have you spoken to the players in the orchestras in your city as to their oppinion? Surely the men (or women) with the jobs could be more helpful in helping you make this decision then a bunch of strangers to you and your cities clarinet playing.
Best of luck with your quest for set up happiness,
Yours Sincerley,
Professor Michael Gregory
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-12-18 22:07
So, Professor Michael Gregory:
Have you ever proved yourself in the profession? How many years playing in a pro orchestra have you had? How many years as a freelancer have you had, come to think of it, how many years have you had even in your own countries youth orchestra, even your cities?
How valid is YOUR opinion?
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-12-18 23:18
To Professor Michael Gregory:
LeWhite doesn't need to prove anything. We will evaluate his/her word just like we will evaluate yours.
Clarence
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-18 23:26
Professor Michael Gregory, you are a nasty mean-spirited human being.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-18 23:50
Actually professor, I don't have to put up with your condescending remarks and pointless questions. I stand wholely by my words in my previous post, and if I come across as a cocky 20-year-old then so be it; you had no right to make that comment. As it turns out I am an enthusiastic college student trying to learn what he can when he can, and believes in himself, which is more than what a lot of people can say. Who knows, I may never be a professional, but I'm going to try and I'm going to try my best. I practise long and hard every day to make sure of this, and I never miss out on an opportunity to learn something new. So at the end of the day, I have nothing to lose because people like you can't bring me down nor will I let them.
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2003-12-19 02:08
Well professor Michael Gregory,
if you are a such a well informed professor then perhaps you should contemplate this. Does having gigs really mean one is an well informed fantastic player. There are people out there giging that should probably burn their clarinets and not even think of playing them again. Infact there are a few principal clarinetists one internationally renowned solist that many of think shouldn't be making some of the "artistic" sounds that come out of his or her clarinet.
Your idea of expierence is crap. I know many many many fantastic college undergrads and grads that could knock the crap off many orchestral players and gigers with years and years of expierence. Do you really think the gigers and the ALL the orchestral players at the very best in the field. I sure the hell don't.
I find your comment to be ignorant and very unintelligent. Professor Michael Gregory, I have never heard of you before. Juding by your oustanding mental thoughts it is very obvious why that is that no one knows who you are.
Post Edited (2003-12-19 02:13)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-19 17:40
I would like to join in the fray, and equipment is not really the whole battle in the game of music. Conductors who can hear a difference in brands have never been encountered by myself, and to judge a balanced way this rather pointless discussion is beyond logic.
The recent concert I have done (peter and the wolf) was conducted by a clarinetist who uses R13's and could not tell what equipment I used...
also nor do I care what he or she thinks(the conductor) of my instruments because the clarinet has very little to do with how well you play(practice does)
no two players play the same way....
David Dow
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-19 19:40
My theory which is mine is:
Most orchestral pros play Buffets because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
There are surely a minority who do so expressly because they really believe they're the best, just as there's surely another minority who do just because everyone else does, and another minority who do because they live in terror of being the high nail and geting hammered down.
But mostly...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Author: obtuse
Date: 2003-12-21 03:44
To give this horse another swift kick (for what it's worth, anyway)..
Under the premise that most clarinet players try out different clarinets from at least the big 4 when picking out which clarinet they will buy, I'd say it's most reasonable to assume that the reason so many clarinetists play on Buffets is because they have some quality or qualities that most players prefer. Of course which mixture of different clarinet qualities one prefers is subjective, but only one of them can be the majority's choice and Buffet just happens to be it.
I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people, though, that would choose Buffet just because it's the preferred brand, which would then make it even more popular and create a cycle of that, the magnitude of which I'm not sure of.
Now, I suppose it's possible that people who care to try other brands to see which they like better, might not as a majority (among those types) be too keen on Buffets and like, say Yamahas much better; but those people are outnumbered by those who still choose Buffet because it's the most tooted (ha! ) of the horns despite the possibility that the majority might like something else if they had tried it.
But since I don't have any empirical data counting sheep, I'm going to base my reasoning on my faith in humanity, and say that it's most probable that Buffet is popular because people like them better than the others, and not as a result of some sort of Buffet conspiracy.
[edit to answer the original question:] What a person is playing on doesn't affect my opinion at all as to whether or not I like them; that's dependant solely on their sound and musicality. Although I might be interested in their set-up for purposes of emulation since I do believe that what clarinet you use has a more than marginal effect on how you sound.
.st
who has been eyeing a Selmer 10G
Post Edited (2003-12-21 03:50)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-21 22:50
I can't believe this thread got so personal ... "pull your heads in" springs to mind ... perhaps some of you have not read the rules for a while ... ?
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Author: PJ
Date: 2004-01-03 06:18
I know this thread is pretty old...but I'd like to throw in that the bulk of the clarinet playing you've heard (and are hearing still) on movies provided by Mr. Kanter is played on an Eaton...who I believe converted to this brand from Buffet, as did one of his students (a former instructor of mine).
Another interesting tidbit...Cioffi played on a Selmer and custom crystal mouthpiece and had a phenominal sound (as noted above). Another instructor of mine studied with Mr. Cioffi and reproduces this sound (sweet as honey, might I ad) on a Vintage Buffet with a custom mouthpiece made by Bill Street. An instructor I studied with before was in Cioffi's downline and plays on an Eaton with a Pyne mouthpiece and has the same sound. Incidentally, these people have all played in major/semi-major orchestras on all this different equipment and had no trouble getting the job.
Oh yeah...and let us not forget the types of reeds they all play on! (LOL!!!)
Just thought I'd offer the horse (decomposed by now) one more kick. ;-)
Play well!
Post Edited (2004-01-03 06:35)
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-03 07:51
bloomin heck
firstly- i thought the first comment/posting by "someone who knows" (who is that masked person?) should have pretty much ended this- it addressed the original question pretty much. yes. there it is (was).
second- some of the people who post on this board have virtually no experience etc, some have not even had lessons (and tell everybody). When they write postings they perhaps should demonstrate a little humility and take care that they don't sound as though they think they are somehow self agrandising (is that a verb?) EVEN if they are not aware that is how they might be read. Ok, there's no need to get heavy over this, but i'd suggest keeping my head in when in the company of SWK and Greg Smith, right? Hell, i was a teenager once... until i was about 30 years old, i know what it's like!
Thirdly- i know of one orchestra where the Principal Clarinet says that he will only hire people who play Buffet. At least one "former sub" claims that he is no longer used as he plays Yamaha. Rubbish- despite what the Principal player has SAID, he doesn't hire that individual because of issues of STYLE (it doesn't pay to constantly tongue like Dieter Kloecker when you're sitting next to Robert Marcellus, right?).
AND despite the principal player saying he only will play next to Buffet, the second clarinetist was hired playing Yamaha (and used Yamaha for about 5 years). This player fills all the requirements mentioned in SWKs original reply to this post.
donald
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-03 15:35
Hi,
A quote I really like!
"Over time you mature and learn to play golf" (Tiger Woods, age 22, August 13, 1998)
HRL
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-03 20:57
That's a good one Hank! Maybe it can be addapted for clarinet players....
"Over time you mature and learn to play the music."
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The Clarinet Pages
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