 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-12-17 20:01
I was doing my part to stimulate the economy at a music store today and came across a product that I had not seen before. It was a small aerosol can containing a product that is supposed to dry woodwinds. The package was sealed so that I couldn't look at the instructions or contents label, athough it said on the outside that it was neutral to wood.
On occasion there have been posts about difficulties removing water from tone holes so I wondered if this might be a solution for those with this problem. It is not cheap: about $22 Canadian, but if it is effective it could be worth it.
If any one is interested, I'll ask the sales people for more information when I go back next month.
Hans
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-17 20:23
Sure, I'd like more information. But please don't buy one just to find out, okay?
Thanks and regards,
John
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-12-17 20:39
Might it be a water-droplet-coagulant such as Rain X? LOH, can you help us? Coming home from this year's last [Comm Band] concert in Tulsa Fri nite, we [I NOT driving!] had a great demonstration of R X's value, as the rain turned to heavy snow, and our good driver could still see!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-12-17 22:57
Sounds like BG's drying up spray. If you get water behind a pad and it causes a problem you stick the plastic tube in and spray to disperse the water. Opinions on effectiveness are mixed as are opinions on possible damage. Try searching on this BB and you will probably find some previous threads.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-17 23:01
Might be just alcohol....which would certainly dry wood
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-18 00:13
How does alcohol dry wood? Wouldn't it just evaporate fairly quickly, leaving the wood like it was before?
Now putting alcohol on the skin and WIPING it off quickly before it evaporated would be different. The alcohol would dissolve the water on the surface, most would be wiped off - most of the alcohol with most of the water, leaving small traces of alcohol behind to quickly evaporate, and even smaller traces of water. These small traces would be smaller than if the surface had just been wiped with alcohol.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-18 00:25
Alcohol has much lower surface tension than water. Thus, if you have genuine water on a clean surface (or a greasy one), it will sort of "ball up." Add just a wee bit of alcohol, and it spreads out immediately. Once that happens, the surface area of the liquid is much greater, so it evaporates faster.
But somehow, I suspect that stuff is not alcohol. If it is, at CDN$22 for a small bottle, I'm going into that business. As alcohols go, that's much more expensive than Single Malt.
Regards,
John
been wrong before, maybe agai
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-12-18 01:10
John.... As usual, you are right. (The more I hear from you, the more I think you are exceptionally qualified to run for president!) One of my former surface science colleagues used to demonstrate the effect of alcohol on the spreading of liquids on surfaces, preferably on the smooth skin of young attractive females! He would first put a drop of pure water on their skin and it would ball up. Then he would take a drop of wine and then, in successive drops, increase the alcohol content gradually by going to, say, sherry, gin, wodka, etc. The drop would spread out more and more as the alcohol content in the drop increased because of the lower and lower surface tension. The young ladies would be truly mesmerized by this exposition of scientific knowledge (and his innate charm!).
Henry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-12-18 01:36
Good analysis/explanation, John , I agree. I hope our well-informed Doc will chime in. My thot re: Rain X was, actually to increase the interfacial surface tension to further "ball-up" the water [as I assume it does on windshields, to prevent "sheeting"] to, here, improve drainage. Perhaps I [we?] should have studied Phys Chem more diligently! As to [the lower] alcohols, they are mutually soluble with water, and do lower the liquid's surface tension. Only nearly-pure EtAc acts as a dehydrating agent [above the azeotrope's conc., ?96%?] as I recall. Help, Omar! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-12-18 02:14
Don...I think you are right as well. I believe that RainX is a (dispersion or solution of) silicone that strongly adsorbs on the glass surface, thus lowering its surface tension. Any liquid subsequently put on the glass will then spread out LESS (i.e. ball up MORE). So, in the former case (alcohol) one lowers the surface tension of the liquid; in the latter case (RainX) one lowers the surface tension of the solid substrate, with opposite results.
Henry
Post Edited (2003-12-18 02:17)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-12-18 12:16
Many TKS, Henry for explaining the differing surface tension situations and their technological solutions. I, and speaking for John, do appreciate the kind words from a fine teacher/prof. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-12-18 13:32
From actual experience with RainX, it greatly decreases surface tension. It may also have a lubricant, but, in any event, droplets spread out and slide quickly down the windshield.
I'm not sure what its effect would be in the bore of a clarinet. The last thing I want is to have my shoes full of dripping condensation. It just might work, however, if you painted it just on the chimney surface of a hole that tends to collect water, to get the water to slide out.
I also am waiting for the final word from the Doctor.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-12-18 13:43
We have researched the patent for the Rain-X product in a previous post. The reaction is a silaination reaction where a regular silica matrix is formed by molecular bonding to the surface forming a water impermeable sheet - the regularity (smoothness) of the surface plays a significant part in forming of the silica matrix and irregular surfaces form an irregular matrix which does not bead water as effectively. My reading on the acid environment and volatile petroleum content, in combination with surface and structure characteristics of wood versus the intended smooth surface characteristics of glass, is that it would not be good for the wood and not as effective as on a glass surface. I am open to other approaches but a supplemental targeted application of a good bore oil around the water collecting tone holes or areas with a channel to the lowest point of gravity away from the area works for me even under very chilly environments where water collection is utmost.
The Doctor
Post Edited (2003-12-18 13:54)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-20 10:14
Henry: Silly me, I used to do that on microscope slides with lab ethanol. Surely an appropriate arm and various concentrations of the same substance in ingestibles would have produced a more memorable demonstration.
And Henry, scientific knowledge hardly qualifies one to be President in the eyes of the American electorate. Most people seem to want candidates to be wonderful debaters, for some weird reason. Maybe they think instead of war to settle foreign policy disagreements, heads of state should just debate those international problems away. Fat chance. I will not hold my breath.
And thanks, Doctor, for your appearance and redux on Rain-X. Have you any suggestions as to the magical "dehydrating" liquid under discussion?
Regards,
John
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-20 15:32
Speaking of ethanol ingestibles...ethyl alcohol dissolves aspirin. In the met lab we used to use fair amounts for removing water from mounts so we always had a good supply. There was an older gent who used to get headaches every afternoon. Since he couldn't swallow aspirin tablets he used the powdered variety. But since that won't dissolve in water he had to dissolve it in our ethyl alcohol. Got rid of his headache every afternoon.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-12-20 16:02
Different alcohols will form stable solutions (azeotropes - versus emulsions) with water when they are in the anyhdrous (without water) form. Ethanol forms a 95% ethanol, 5% water azeotrope while isopropyl alcohol forms a 91%, 9% water form. Both will reduce the suface tension of water and make it "spread" more easily. Both however will also remove oil from the wood.
The Doctor
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-20 18:38
The semi-polar behavior of alcohol, thus its ability to remove oil, is what concerns me. That's why I wrote earlier that alcohol could do it, but I somehow doubt that's what is used. Maybe it is, I guess. Anyway, I can't yet think of anything else that would do it.
Regards,
John
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