 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-17 08:13
Hi,
As I sit and listen to Eddie Daniels or Richard Stoltzman, I can’t help but think that if I had their particular clarinet, mouthpiece, reed, ect., that I would have the beautiful tone they have. But, then I get thinking that even if I played their clarinets that I’d still sound like me with my tone. Or, I get thinking that if either one of them played on my Noblet Artist that they would produce a tone from it that is far sweeter than I do at this point. Am I correct?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-17 08:51
More or less. If you used the same mouthpiece, reed, clarinet, ligature, barrel of some professional, you won't have their exact tone, but you still wouldn't sound like you normally do. You might sound better. Or worse (if the mouthpiece doesn't agree with you, reed strength doesn't agree, clarinet is more/less resistant than you are used to, etc.) Basically all it would accomplish is "different". Especially with all those variables. There are too many.
If you wanted to limit it, I love to try a proffessionals setup from the bottom up (that is see what I sound like with his clarinet, then his clarinet and barrel, then clarinet barrel and ligature, then mouthpiece, then reed). Wherever it starts to get worse I'd stop and go one step backwards (which most likely would mean I'd just like his clarinet or maybe his clarinet and barrel, MAYBE ligature. After that it's very sensitive to YOUR personal embouchre).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2003-12-17 09:30)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-12-17 11:44
Don't sell yourself short, Rev...
The real difference between the Big Dogs, and us 'Pups on the Porch' is the amount of preparatory time they have over us... it would take these folks a few weeks to wring the most out of any instrument.
The fact that they've been playing every day of their adult lives, in a concerted and studios manner is what has made them great.
If you're like me, you don't have enough years left to be superb, but plenty to be pretty good (you do practice everyday, do you not?)...
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2003-12-17 13:12
I enjoy playing baseball or its cousin softball. I don't think for a minute that I can play like professional players. I go watch the professionals and marvel at their skill. I appreciate their skill much more since I played on some level.
I accept the challenge of getting better and trying new things. Same goes for clarinet playing.
Actually, I feel I have an advantage. I can make vast improvements by learning new techniques. They on the other hand can only hope for miniscule improvements bought on by some itty bitty thing that they changed. They are so fine tuned and honed that little things like humidity, size of recital hall, bad hair day or what ever can make huge differences in their playing. Kind-of like Johnathan Livingston Seagull ---Where is the next level??
Me,-- I just plug along and enjoy the little things. I go watch them when I can and buy their CD's. I realize that there are many levels between me and them and I will enjoy checking them off, one-by-one.
A horrible thought---- What if I did play Larry Combs instrument, and I did sound just like him, and it was so easy to play that those tuff runs just flowed under my fingers??? What on earth would I do then? Take up playing a Saxophone?? I don't think so...
A good day for Me------ when the dog stays in the same room when I play any note above A6.
From "happy to be a pup on the porch"
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-17 13:15
I guess I keep thinking about that Violin player (I don't know if this is really true or not) who took the violin out of the little kid's hand and made it sound like a million dollars. In other words, maybe it's not just/only the instrument but the instrument in the hands of a capable player?
Also, I did read how that when Artie Shaw was at his peak he was practicing 8 hours a day! I guess the amount of time spent with the instrument in various settings and opportunities helps as well.
I'm just wanting to sound like the big boys -- that's all!!! 
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-17 13:55
Rev,
The pros sound like they do because it is a combination of their own physical structure (oral cavity, etc.) and the sound they have worked to craft over a career. The instrument, barrel, mpiece, etc. are just devices to help them bring those qualities out. The sound is not intrinsic to the gear. If you played ED's setup, you would sound like you -- because of the high quality of his "stuff", it will be easier to sound like yourself, but you won't sound like him.
If it were only as simple as cloning a pro's setup to sound like him/her...
M.
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-17 14:39
Thanks Tim. That was a great anology. I never thought of it like that. That's very helpful.
Mark, yea that would be great if one could clone a pro's setup. I guess that's kind of at the heart of what I was wondering.
I love the sound of the clarinet so much when in the hands of a master that I really want to sound like that too -- I suppose everybody else does too
It is fun making progress. Why is it so slow in coming??? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: William
Date: 2003-12-17 15:30
SB wrote: "The fact that they've been playing every day of their adult lives, in a concerted and studios manner is what has made them great."
Although it is true that the more you do something--as in play clarinet--the better you get, their is the limit of pure innate "born with" talent that a lifetime of study and practice will not produce. All of the "great" players of our times have two main characteristics: 1) they had the inspiration (attitude) which drove their personal desire to acheive, and, 2) they were born with the necessary physical tools--fast tongue, quick, accurate motor response--and an extrodianary natural sense of musical awareness (ear) that makes playing music "easy" for them.
As a personal example, I can play every single note that Larry Combs can play, with the correct rhytums and just as fast. But he will always be able to play them more musically (and more consistantly "in tune") because, simply, he is the more naturally talented muscian. One thing is, my tongue will never learn, nor can it ever be taught, to tongue as fast as his--I am, and forever will be, "tongue speed challenged." So I cheat--double, triple, flutter, etc., or just plain slur. LC doesn't have to cheat, he simply articulates what he sees--and does very nicely, I might add.
So, I am sorry to have to disagree, but the truely great ones do not acheive their success with practice and experiance alone (although that certainly helps), they are simply born with "it".
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-17 16:00
Artie was practicing.....what....8 hours a day! Please excuse any weak humour perceived. I think the above responses were right on. Experts at anything always make it look easy. This kind of topic always makes me think of something I read years ago which goes: Why is the saying "trial and error", why isn't it "trial and success"?? It's because we only really learn something by making errors. And that's why practice is important.
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Author: Rivers
Date: 2003-12-17 16:00
This is not unlike golfers....practically every "scratch" amateur golfer has in the back of his mind that given the time and opportunity for unlimited practice and playing they too could play as well as the tour professionals...even at the professional level where the difference in talent in negligible....the top tour professional have that "something" that allows them to excel at the pinnacle of their sport....it has to be even more so the with musicians...it is the talent and the gift to "hear" the music in a way the few others do
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-17 16:35
Rev, a lot of photographers have wished they could take pictures of Yosemite like those of Carleton Watkins or Ansel Adams. Well, they can. Nowadays, there are books available on photographing Yosemite that will even tell you where to stand and suggest exposures for non-automatic cameras. Your pictures, too, can look just like those of the masters. And you will have become a high-tech copyist.
I've often wondered if either of those gentlemen would have become known for their work if they'd been photographing babies in San Francisco studios, making good money and living a life that many would think a lot better than the privations of existing in the wilderness just to get a few timeless images.
You must select a subject that drives you. Listening to symphonic music is a delight, but I don't play it. There are many others who can do that far better than I. But improvisational jazz, wow, I like that. And I'm pretty sure I can play it better than many symphonic players could. And if I can't, so what. I play it, and they don't.
The books that "tell you where to stand" are many. They've been here longer than we have: Klosé, Rose, Baermann, and others. Nowadays, books by Eddie DeFranco and Eddie Daniels can help if jazz is on your mind.
You can never know how good you are until you pick a target, start shooting for it, and keep doing that until you either get where you want to be or just give it up as a bad go.
Of course, you don't need a camera just like the one Ansel Adams used to take good pictures. Likewise, you don't need a Clarinet just like the ones used by Stoltzmann or Daniels to play well.
By the way, one reason I appreciate Eddie Daniels so much: He is the only Clarinet player I've ever heard who makes me think, "If I practiced 168 hours a week for the rest of my life, I would never sound that good."
My opinions only. You are free to ignore them at your peril.
Regards,
John
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-17 19:45
You mean I'll never be as great as Eddie Daniels no matter how hard and long I practice my tonguing ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) Sorry, couldn't resist
I hadn't thought about the inate abilities one is born with. I know I'll never be in the league with the greatest players as far as execution prowess. But, I want to hope that I can have a sound/tone that is beautiful nonetheless with hard work and diligence. No??
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-17 20:00
No, Rev, Maybe you *could* become as good as Eddie Daniels. I only know that I could not. Dat's okay. I can live with it.
Regards,
John
maybe if Chateau Mouton could become number one, so could I? Nahh....
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-17 20:51
I like what a math professor said in my college (I found out yet ANOTHER mathematician secretly played clarinet, however can't convince him to join an ensemble.) Here's a paraphrase of what he was telling me.
"Thirty years ago, in high school, I could play anything. You could put it in front of me and no rhythm, articulation, dynamic, nothing would slip by. Then I got to Michigan State. And I met people with talent. And I realized that it doesn't take a musician to get the rhythms right, only someone with a lot of time on their hands to practice and drill it. But it takes true talent to express the music. And I couldn't do that." Then he told me how he's getting back into it and I asked him to join a few ensembles at the college to which he respectfully declined, but that's something that will stick with me. No matter how hard I practice, or what notes you play, you have to be able to feel the music and let the music play through you.
Since then I approach musical pieces a little differently, trying to figure out what kind of story the piece paints and trying to recreate the picture, not just the sound. It's hard, and I can't do it that well yet, but the more I open up and try to worry about the MUSIC and not the notes/fingerings, the better it sounds in the end.
Rev, I think that any lack in tone that you may hear while playing between you and the greats might not be because of setup, but because they have somehow (to borrow a very bad cliche) "become one with" the music. While you certainly should strive for technical proficiency, realize that in pieces it's not "staccato" that makes the audience go wow, but the feeling of "giddy" or "happy" or "sad" or "carefree" that you can put in a piece that really wows them.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-17 20:52
I can live with it too John.
I think though that if I can buy this mouthpiece collection all my problems will be solved and I'll become great! Whachathink?
[ eBay link deleted - Please do not post eBay links without prior approval - especially while the auction is still in progress - GBK ]
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-18 00:37
Sorry about the eBay listing. It makes sense not to do that. Won't happen again.
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2003-12-18 01:15
I agree with the fact that you need to play with feeling, which makes a person a great player, and that people who put in the time will become decent players as well.
I also remember a day when my (adult) neighbor came in our basement when I was a kid, picked up my clarinet and played on my setup like a dream! Now, maybe he didn't sound as good as when he played his own horn, but he played my horn much better than I did when I was a beginner. (duh)
I also remember in middle school, the one teacher was playing on a student's horn to diagnose a problem. We all said, "Play mine! Play mine!" just so we could hear how well our clarinet could actually sound! I've done that recently with my flute to see if the problem was with me or the flute. It was me, as the other player was able to get the lowest and highest notes out without a problem. She said she liked how my flute played, but I can't get that kind of tone from it!
I also have heard a really bad player playing on his brand new Buffet. He still honked on it! When he offered to let me try it, I used my own mouthpiece/reed setup, and was impressed with how well it made me sound.
Post Edited (2003-12-18 20:12)
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-18 11:51
I can't help but think that if Eddie Daniels played my Clarinet it would sound much like I'd like it to sound - though not as good as if he were playing his own. I'd love to hear what mine could sound like with a great player playing it. Then I'd know what tone I could shoot for (though knowing I'll never quite attain). But, that's OK. I can watch the game now and enjoy it
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-18 12:39
Quote:
Then I'd know what tone I could shoot for (though knowing I'll never quite attain) Don't sell yourself short on that. My tone used to be horrible. I used to get a lot of throat sounds and undertones when playing my clarinet, but now when people hear me play the first thing they usually say is "You have a great tone." I don't know what happened, I just practiced and tried advice from this board to sound better and I know I've improved. You'll be surprised because while you probably don't notice the day to day improvement, one day you'll sit down and say, "Wow. I just noticed that I sound a lot better than when I started."
It's a good feeling too ;-)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2003-12-18 14:36
I think the best comment I heard was from a salesperson who was talking about all the calls he got from players who wanted to sound like so and so and what they should buy. He used Eddie Daniels as an example and it went like this:
"Well first you need to buy a handpicked Concerto II, using an Eddie Daniel's mouthpiece and ED Rovner Lig. Then start playing the sax about 5 hours a day for 6 years, then start playing the Clarinet about 5 hours a day. Attend Julliard, practice like 6-8 hours a day for a number of years and when your done, keep practicing for the next 20 years and you still won't sound like Eddie Daniels, but you ought to sound pretty good yourself and people will be calling me to see how they can sound like you."
Best
RW
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-18 18:37
"You'll be surprised because while you probably don't notice the day to day improvement, one day you'll sit down and say, "Wow. I just noticed that I sound a lot better than when I started."
Thanks for the encouragement Alexi. Honestly, I have noticed improvement already. Yesterday was kind of a mild "wow" day for me. That's not to say I'm anywhere near where I hope someday to be. But, I did notice improvement!
Rick, I'm headed off to Julliard
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