 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: krawfish3x
Date: 2003-12-10 23:45
in the Concertino in the Allegro(towards the end) there is a F# diminished 7 chord followed by a g major sweep and another F# diminished 7 chord. it takes up a total of 3 measures. i did everything to try and get this lick down but i cant play it up to speed but everything else but these three measures is practically perfect and i dont want to slow it down. how can i fix this?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-10 23:57
and yet another reason for daily practice in Baermann III ...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-11 00:31
Krawfish,
Funny thing is I am playing the exact same piece for lesson evaluation next week Tuesday and am having trouble with the same exact spot. The second half of the diminished seventh is fine for me and the G scale sweep isn't that bad (once you get that over the break smooth), but the first half of the dim 7th kills me.
I credit it to myself not being technically skilled enough and figure some work with Baermann or Klose's dim 7th patterns should shape that up for next time. Incidentally, I think this is the harder of the three diminished 7th runs he could've used. THANKS A LOT WEBER!
As for a way to learn it, depending on how much time you have, you may want to just repeat it over and over. First start at the end of the diminished 7th run with the last two notes. When you've got that down fine, add the note before it. Then add the note before it. Continue until you can do the entire run downwards. It's sort of working backwards, but it works.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: lyn
Date: 2003-12-11 01:33
Memorize it. Also subdivide the sweep and make sure you are playing the run evenly. Play it tongued, play it swing, play it backwards, too, that helps sometimes.
When you go to read it, there will be no problem........right now you are too concerned with looking at all the notes, accidentals and whatnot. You need to play those three measures as Music. Which can't be done if you're too hung up on looking and you're not Listening.
~L
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-11 01:37
Memorizing definitely helps. That's the reason that we work through baermann and such methods. To get the technique memorized under our fingers so when it comes up in a piece of music instead of trying to read each note and finger them we can just play what was pre-recorded in our hands so we don't fumble.
My problem with it is the "awkwardness" of the transition from F# to Eb to C to throat A. And also my LH pinky often slips off the C key. I have memorized it, but just getting it to feel natural and not "forced" is killing me.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-11 02:06
It's funny, the first time through that diminished 7th has always been fine for me, it just fell under my fingers (must have been some of the other works I've done in the past) but then the second time through was invariably the time the fingers would mess up. It's a psychological thing. Definitely the scales, including diminished 7ths, help so much. I'd second what everyone else has suggested especially the playing it in different rhythms, then even backwards and forwards.
Recent studies have shown that studying before sleeping helps the brain assimilate better what you've just learned. Maybe changing your practice time to just before you go to sleep would help? That's the only time I can ever practice for years now because I have a paying job and family, but somehow my practice pieces and scales get learned.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-11 04:41
sweep? lick? did I fall asleep and wake up in another era?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-11 04:48
What's the matter man? This cool cat speaking too much jive?
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-11 11:25
Ah, that's just Diz, he gets it. Of course you should hear his Auzzie descriptions, we'd be lost.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-12-11 14:05
krawfish -
Oddly, you should consider yourself lucky. You've found a hole in your technique and now have something specific to work on.
One of the three big method books -- Klose, I think, but it could be Lazarus or Langenus -- has a set of diminished seventh exercises in ascending and descending groups of four. Baermann III, of course, has more elaborate exercises.
You need to work these out so that your fingers know them as well as a C major scale.
I described the method (or at least a method) for doing this at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=24907&t=24731
The most important thing is to start dead slow, with a metronome, and never "fake" it at a quick tempo, which is just practicing how to make mistakes.
Give it a try and report back in a week.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-11 19:02
In Weber's Concerto 1 I noticed a LOT of dim 7th runs. I think all three were in there. I'm sure I noticed one more going from C# to Bb to F to D. I don't know if the third was in there.
ALexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-11 19:35
coasten1 said;
> Also note. That dim 7th 'sweep' is also in Weber's Concerto 1
Diminished 7th runs are found everywhere: Mozart Concerto, Brahms Sonatas, Debussy Premiere Rhapsodie, Spohr Concerti, etc..etc..etc...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-11 19:38
GBK wrote:
> Dimisished 7th runs are found everywhere: Mozart
> Concerto, Brahms Sonatas, Debussy Premiere Rhapsodie, Spohr
> Concerti, etc..etc..etc...GBK
>
So that's what that run in Mozart movt. I was? I never realized it was a dim 7th. I just knew it sounded cool.
Alexi
PS - BTW, congrats on the use of html coding to get that bold look! I believe this is the first time I've recognized you use it! Cheers!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-11 19:57
I save my use of HTML coding for emphasis.In this case it was warranted...GBK 
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-12 01:34
Brenda ... shhh!! Don't give away too many of my secrets :-)
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2003-12-12 06:29
GBK - is that a special 'executive model' smiley you have there?!
Joanna Brown
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Author: kdennyclarinet
Date: 2003-12-25 06:40
Ah... the Weber. I was fortunate to win a concerto competition with this piece during my undergrad, however, I will openly admit that my technique was just not quite ready for it at that time. This piece will really expose any player's weaknesses whether it be technique, timing, expression, or voicing control. It is much more demanding than it is often given credit.
Other than just the notes (which are enough as it is) be sure to consider organizing these three measures into smaller note groups. This has helped me quite a bit. The G major scale is printed in two different ways in the two editions that I own. The Cundy-Bettoney edition shows a grouping of 6 then a grouping of 13... The SMC edition from the 16 Grands Solos De Concert collection prints a pattern of 9 then 10. This is better, imho. What has worked for me and my students, is finding a grouping that works well when you break it down for metronome practicing.
Try this method... Set your metronome at about 76 (then work to speed up slowly). This will represent the 8th note. As you begin the descending f# arpeggio in your 6 note groupings in measure 177, you will play two notes per click. As you begin the G major scale in measure 178, you will begin playing three notes per click except for the very last group---a group of four--- which is generally stretched out a bit to the next high Eb (which many will put a slight tenuto on). You really want to make sure that you do not rush this group of four. Go back to two notes per click as you play the f# dim arpeggio the second time. For "eyeball organization" it helps to write in "mini-slurs" that represent these two, three, and four note groups underneath the large full-measure slur. These "mini-slurs" can always be erased later once you've mastered the technical aspects. Finally, as you work to speed up the metronome, revert back to your 2 clicks per measure where you will play your two 6 note groups followed by your 9 and 10 note groups (which, by the way, is the grouping I prefer), and finish out with your second descent of the f# diminished arpeggio in two 6 note groups.
Slow, purposeful, and thoughtful practice is the key. Remember, in practicing it is the quality and not the quantity... additionally, you can "practice" without your clarinet. Think through your music before you tire yourself or create mindless practicing habbits. Good luck on the Weber! It's one of my all-time favorites...
K. Denny
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-25 08:22
kdennyclarinet wrote:
> The G major scale is
> printed in two different ways in the two editions that I own.
> The Cundy-Bettoney edition shows a grouping of 6 then a
> grouping of 13... The SMC edition from the 16 Grands Solos De
> Concert collection prints a pattern of 9 then 10. This is
> better, imho.
The Breitkopf & Härtel edition (from the autograph) has the grouping as a 6 and a 13.
As this measure is usually played too quickly, (thus arriving at the the top Eb6 too soon), the grouping of 6 and 13 lets one start the scale slowly and then increase the speed to reach the Eb6 in measure 178.
This is one of many measures in the Concertino where the clarinet is playing without orchestral accompaniment. A bit of ad libitum in regard to the rhythm can be most effective.
This is a run which will always sound faster than it actually is. The difficulty is not playing it too fast...GBK
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