 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-06 22:03
Hi Everyone,
I guess I missed a good one with the "defeated by a piece" string. There were even references to Rachel's question/answers in another post; it looks like some BB members took a pretty strong stand on issues of civility or lack thereof by posters.
I was struck though by the fact that several references to pretty "salty" responses were directed toward BB members who’s identity was shrouded by a pseudonym. My questions is “if someone knows our identity, would we say the same things to them then if we were anonymous?”
Everyone knows my name by my email address. There are many others frequent posters on the BB who use their name that way or in their posting signature (Dave Spiegelthal, Mark Charette, John Moses, Don Berger, John Gibson, D Dow, etc.) or who’s identity can be determined by just clicking on the email address.
What’s my point? I think we need to be, as Miss Manners says, more of a “Gentle Reader.” Sometimes many of us have forgotten that while we have a strong opinion about something a poster says, we really need to work a little more on our delivery. Mark and GBK do a great job of policing the BB but my comment is directed at the "tone of a response."
HRL
PS When my university students do end of term evaluations on me, I expect them to have total anonymity. Only then can they feel free to say what they will. What I’m talking about above is not the same.
Post Edited (2003-12-07 03:32)
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-12-06 22:29
Like you Hank I never hide behind a pseudonym. If I express an opinion it is mine and I stand by it. Although I am guillty of the odd 'salty' response I attempt to refrain from personalising things and make constructive comments. I do not need to hide from who I am.
I started reading the thread mentioned and noticed a certain 'tone of response' from some BB members that was, lets say arrogant. I am sure I will soon see these genuine prodigies on the world stage, as principal players with major orchestras or soloists. Unfortunately we wont be able to recognise them because we don't know their real names.
Bring back genuine objective or subjective responses without implied ad-hominem attacks. By the sound of it there are a ot of 'prodigies' or 'giants' out there. The funny thing is I never see them on the gigs, ie. paid musical engagements, that I am doing.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-06 22:39
Just a reminder to all - especially to those who may be new to the bulletin board, to always discuss the question and/or the answer.
An attack on the individual is not permitted.
I often think that from time to time we see replies from individuals who might consider a bit more tact. Remember, that this board is read by people of all ages and abilities.
However, revealing, or not revealing their identity is their right...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-06 23:56
GBK,
I, of course, agree that if someone wishes to remain anonymous, that is their right. But to use such a shield to make a less than cordial and scholarly response is, as my AU or UK friends would probably say, "not good form."
Mark, you are so correct. On a gig, everyone gets the job done and assists the others in(on) the stage/bandstand/pit when needed. It's pretty simple. Have you ever left a gig without saying "great to work with you" whether it is true or not? There is protocol, etiquette, and courtesy required.
HRL
PS Many times each semester, I must give some students a little "bad news" about their work; I try to be as civil as possible. Sometimes, I must get their attention by being more direct but even then, I try my best to be as supportive as possible. Preserving dignity for all involved is important.
Post Edited (2003-12-07 00:00)
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-12-07 00:04
Hank, I really believe that many of our problems are caused by our own 'spin' on what is written or said to us. Example: Our local community theatre forthcoming production is "Into the Woods." So, having been in several, I asked the producer/director if there were any "geezer parts" in this one. (I'm 78). She said "Yes, but I don't think you could do it." So, How was I to take that? (1) She didn't think I was good enough to carry the role. (2) She thought the role had too many sides to be learned for my --beginning to be--faltering memory. (3) The vocal range for the part was just too much for my range (actually it was a stretch). (4) As I had not been well, she was just personally concerned about my health and 'durability' without a stand-in.
How should I have played my part here? I chose to slink away, muttering about being too busy anyway. Looking on it now--two weeks later-- it was undoubtedly a combination of all four points, along with her own reputation being at stake if I didn't make it. (In cause none of you know-- Bob A is Bob Arney, as there are many 'Bob's' on the BB.)
Yes, I know, nothing to do about clarinets--but much to do about our receptivity to the views of others.
Bob A
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-07 00:20
Hi Bob,
It seemed to be about the delivery as I see it. The director did not let you down too easily. But then, how much real talent is there in the Iowa Great Lakes area :-).
I saw the Omaha Playhouse production of Misery two weeks ago. Two acts and about 10 scenes each but more importantly, just two parts. While I can be certain that the casting was critical, there had to be many individuals that read for the part, but only two were accepted. The odds were great but hopefully, those that did not make the cut were handled with dignity. It sounds like you were not!
HRL
PS Geezers rule! And we have Medicare cards and SS checks to prove it.
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Author: Brian Peterson
Date: 2003-12-07 00:36
I guess it is everyone's choice, but personally, I really don't get the whole "anonymity" thing. If the likes of Larry Combs are willing to publically post to the BB as he has in the past, then what's the big deal?
If you're willing to be critical of another, however justified you think you are, you ought to be willing to allow the person you're being critical of to engage you one on one.
Brian J. Peterson
Publically Identified Clarinet Expert Wannabe
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-07 00:53
Hi Brian (PICEW),
Great point.
And I know that Gregory Smith and others symphony players post from time to time and guess what, they always seem quite cordial and supportive. I also suspect that there are other notables in the clarinet kingdom that lurk in the background and see how we mortals behave or misbehave; at times it must be quite comical.
As far as engaging one-on-one, IMHO that is best done off-line from the BB between the individuals involved. Personally, I have many great chats with a group of BB frineds about what happens on Sneezy but I do it privately. We laugh, we cry....
HRL
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-12-07 02:53
When I fall into the category of "genuine prodigies on the world stage, as principal players with major orchestras or soloists" I'll reveal my identity. Until then I think I'll just stay a nobody...
On another note, there have been one or two times when I thought that Mark Charette's rulings have not been fair - and on these occasions I have contacted him via private email. Last time a discussion considered political was closed down for this very reason - yet I read nothing on political discussions relating to music and the clarinet in the rules. However, at the end of the day, I say "Whatever" and keep practising Klose... hehe!
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-07 03:05
I feel less inhibited in what I say when I can preserve my anonymity- that is why, on this and every other Internet discussion board, I use only my first name, and my secondary email, which, unlike my primary address, doesn't contain my name.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-07 03:18
1) In these days of Internet predators, I'd say pseudonyms are a big deal
2) As long as pseudonyms are consistent, who cares? I happen to use my real name (for obvious reasons) but please don't think that names are required.
3) Assume the person you're discussing things with is an adult
4) Discussion and debate, whether sharp and biting or gentle and supportive, is just that, discussion and debate. Of course we all get more involved with personalities than we should at times, but that's life.
5) Pseudonyms for "authorship" are a well-known and constructive device for writing sometimes unpopular ideas. As long as 2) applies, I think it's just great.
6) I personally think this thread is out of line ...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-07 03:20
LeWhite wrote:
> Last
> time a discussion considered political was closed down for this
> very reason - yet I read nothing on political discussions
> relating to music and the clarinet in the rules.
And I was polite enough not to bring up our PRIVATE conversation in public. I assumed you would do the same.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-07 03:54
I personally sign my name to most, if not every post that I write. However I'm just a college level math major dabbling in clarinet as a hobbie. My name may as well be "A. Nonymous" since I'm not known for anything and haven't personally dealt with many of you.
However I do agree that sometimes, even the point has to be put across, there are many ways to say it and we should try to pick the less offensive ways.
On the other hand though, people also have to realize that this is just a forum, and not actually TAKE everything as a personal attack. If someone says, "You just need more practice," they don't know how much you practice. So they're not attacking your person, only suggesting that you practice more. Maybe you can't practice more, but a lot of times I see posts of retaliation against people trying to give advice. Then it just gets blown up into a battle.
While you should be courteous when figuring out how to say things, you also have to develop some sort of shell. No need to get offended by every little detail, and on another note, as horrible as it may seem, there are people you will meet in this world that are going to be NASTIER than what I've seen in the posts. So if you can't handle a little anger from reading words on a screen, what's gonna happen when you get into that fender bender with the man who knows and yells every swear word ever created?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2003-12-07 04:44)
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-07 10:39
Well, my profession is pastor: Rev. And my middle name is Avery. My dad has always gone by Avery. But, I am at the point on boards where I do like a little more anonymity than I used to.
My experience on several boards over the last several years is that these sort of things happen occasionally. But usually/always they blow over and everything becomes amiable again. Maybe it's best to take personal issues, or things that may get misunderstood or become hurtful, directly to the person involved.
My two cents worth ...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-07 13:30
I don't recall what the guideline or rule was when I originally signed-up here but since most participants seemed to use pseudonyms that's what I did. I just searched the site and didn't find anything about how to change one's "call letters". Those of us who don't mind participants contacting us offline offer the opportunity to write us direct. So....what is the "real" purpose for posting one's actual name.....maybe I'm missing something.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-12-07 14:21
Hank,
I'm glad you started this one.
IMO anonymity is not a valid reason to forgo tact and diplomacy, which are necessary to keep things civil - it costs nothing to respect each other, even if we disagree.
Perhaps re-reading our responses before selecting "Post" would be useful?
Regards,
Hans (whose New Year's resolutions include practising more and implementing his own suggestions)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-07 14:37
BobD wrote:
> I just searched the site and
> didn't find anything about how to change one's "call letters".
Click "My Profile -> Edit My Profile"
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Author: Donn
Date: 2003-12-07 15:17
Three old quotes (probably not accurate, and probably overused) which may (or may not) be pertinent:
"Judge not lest ye be judged"
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"
"People who live in glass housed shouldn't throw stones"
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-07 18:15
I prefer to stay anonymous out of respect for my work place. If I ever say something silly I don't want the shadow to fall on my orchestra. I had my name on my profile for a long time and felt very uncomfortable about that. A search on Google would unveil my identity immedeately.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-12-07 18:16)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-07 18:30
I agree that anonymity may encourage anyone to be less inhibited about the comments one makes. That's why I use my real name. I can be abrasive enough as it is.
As for the rules of Mark's Bulletin Board: Hey, that's the point. It's MARK's Bulletin Board. I am a guest here, as are we all, and same as if I were a guest in his home, I play by his rules. Yes, I contribute now and then to the operation of the board, but that's no doubt a drop in the bucket compared to Mark's time, monetary investment, and creativity. If I occasionally think he's being arbitrary and capricious, that's normal. It would be weird on my part to expect his opinions to coincide with mine. And that's no reason to argue with him. On the other hand, we've engaged in strong discussions on several other topics. Operation of the board, though... that's different.
Regards,
The Count of Monte Cristo
Post Edited (2003-12-07 18:32)
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Author: RonD
Date: 2003-12-07 18:33
I have not posted for some time, but I still read the posts to stay up to date and also continue to learn. I must comment on the gentler tone of the BB over the last 6 months and I feel that the new log in and efforts of M.C. and others has greatly improved the quality of this board. Keep up the good work and thank You.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2003-12-07 21:56
Hey, for all you know, I could be the best clarinetist in the world!! And I make millions of dollars... except for the fact that always give away that I am a college student that isn't the best. :P
I don't know if anyone remembers a discussion I started about a year ago that turned into a brawl because some lady decided that I was immature and uncivil with the way I act. I think persoanl attacks such as those are uncalled for, especially if the point of the thread was to get the experiences of other players. The point of that post then was to see who had problems with a band director that was unfair, etc, and my dislike for this person was fairly obvious, and someone decided that my personal opinion made me a bad person. Woe is me! (I'm only slightly bitter about)
But I have a humorous outlook on things, and as much as personal attacks bother me, I will try not to fall down to that level and I will try to be civil in my words. I don't think that if I knew her real identity, I would have gone to her house and put a mouse in her fridge, or something mean. lol
I pretty much like being anonymous, and I only give out my identity when I am comfortable. I used this name since I was in middle school, I believe... cuz I played contra! I think maybe a location type "hint" could be a pretty good idea, almost like ebay. Just the country, maybe a big city they are near.
--Contragirl
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-12-07 22:50
I don't think being anonymous or not affects the way people express themselves online as much as the simple fact of being online. For instance, iworkplace email between people who know each other well can get quite out of hand. People will say things they would never say in person. I have been in online groups where the people who stirred the pot the most used their real names. This is actually a very polite board, but we need to remember that the written word can hurt. Yet, we are not face to face and in many cases we do not really know each other well. These are good reasons to be considerate.
I would very much encourage the younger posters here to use pseudonyms. I am more comfortable doing so. I don't think knowing my identity would make much difference. I would still be a clarinet-playin' mom from Idaho who likes to see what everyone has to say and throw out an idea once in awhile.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2003-12-07 23:54
Hank is absolutely right. I participate some though not a lot in a message board dealing with radio/tv here in Phoenix. Almost everyone uses a "fake name". And boy do they get into people's s**t. Something I'm sure they wouldn't do if we all knew who they were. It's like a bunch of wannabe's that have no life. I prefer usng my name.....and if I offend which I don't intend to....well, then the "poster" or anyone else can YELL back and KNOW who they're talking too....
If it's worth saying.....it's worth admitting who you are. I have no qualms whatsoever about who I am....or what I say. And I'm pretty outspoken.
Especially on my radio show. But I also temper myself because I'm not "here to offend".
JG
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Author: Rene
Date: 2003-12-08 06:14
Remember that it is a different thing to introduce yourself by name, profession, number of children, hobbies, likings and dislikings in your local bridge club, or in the world wide web. I find it unberable that people find out everything about me with a simple Google search. Many people do.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-08 14:36
Hank, I think what you are talking about is exactly the same. The anonymous evaluation allows your students to freely express themselves without fear of reprisal. Reprisal takes on a different dynamic on this board, but the principal is the same. And, just as with your students, if a comment is statistically off the reservation, you can, at your discretion, explore it further or completely discount it. Anonymity does invite deliberate sniping and perhaps a loss of civility in some instances, but it also enables a very free flow of thoughts and ideas which serve the greater good.
The good news is that, unlike on the highways, this kind of aggressive anonymity doesn't result in fatal car accidents. The only thing that gets hurt is ego if we take postings too seriously.
Here's the interesting thing -- many auditions are screened. We as musicians have the benefit of anonymity in the early stages of competing for a job. That takes some of the bias out of the panel's assessment, and probably serves to put us more at ease as auditioners. As much as we want civility from our critics, don't we really want to hear the unvarnished truth, however cruel? Perhaps a little of that culture bleeds into this forum, which may not be such a bad thing if this is going to be any kind of resource for developing as clarinetists.
Cheers,
Miles Davis.
no, uh,
Igor Stravinsky.
well, ok,
Mark Sloss
Self-proclaimed single reed player, studio owner and opinionated SOB
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-08 22:28
Hi Mark aka Igor/Miles,
Interesting points in your post. But I don't think student evaluation or screening an audition is quite the same process as responding to a post on this BB.
When I respond to a BB post, I am not evaluating or judging the person in a critical manner but am just trying present assistance or an opinion on a question or issue. When my students evaluate me though, they are doing just that; they have paid for a service and as thus have every right to evaluate my performance as their professor in delivering.
HRL
PS BTW, I usually fair very well with my students.
Post Edited (2003-12-08 23:37)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-09 15:20
Hank,
Nothing more rewarding than students saying good things about their teachers! (well, except maybe getting bribes for good grades...)
Maybe the point we are both missing is that everyone has different motivations for participating here. Some are constructive and some could be construed as destructive. Some posters are looking for encouragement while others are looking for insight no matter how painful.
There is diversity in the utility of people's posts as well. I've seen plenty of harsh but very useful posts and some very friendly and completely useless posts (at least from my perspective).
Probably the best counsel is for everyone to take what they need/want, and ignore the rest. Mark C. runs a nice, tight ship here and keeps things from getting truly personal. This is among the most civilized bulletin boards (believe it or not) in which I've participated. And, let us all not forget before getting too exercised about a thread or a post, we are getting fair value for our money. If MC charged for membership, that would be another story. How cool is it that Combs, Smith, Moses, et al are handing out freebies!
M.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-12-09 16:13
Hi Mark,
"There is diversity in the utility of people's posts as well. I've seen plenty of harsh but very useful posts and some very friendly and completely useless posts (at least from my perspective)."
Good thoughts. A middle ground might be what we all should strive for.
HRL
PS I've never had an attempted bribe (OK, one student talked about giving me a stroke on all the par 4s on the golf course but she was an A student in her own right so.... She was a scratch member of the college golf team and I'm a 17 handicap so fair is fair!).
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-12-09 16:39
Mark & Hank,
I generally agree with the importance of anonymity, in the situation you describe. Stories are legion about teacher/student reprisals. What is a student to do when their careers are on the line and their teacher has issues? This has happened to friends and to close relatives, and it can be an enormous problem. A relative's graduate advisor was becoming alcoholic, and the relative ended up transferring. A friend's advisor had him doing research that generated meaningless data, rendering his PhD thesis unacceptable - his committee got him a new advisor, who helped him find a new problem, and so that he managed to do both the research and writeup in two years flat. Both of these people suffered, even though there were no reprisals.
The denizens of this board in general don't have this sort of relationship, although it is sure possible for students and teachers to read each others' posts. To that extent, anonymity is reasonable. After school, it might seem better to use your own name, but there are still politics involved in the job market, and you never know who is listening. I am sure that this influences people to keep operating under pseudonyms.
Some threads here are real gems, and some don't quite come up to that level. However, this board is an open forum, and things don't always go the way you want them to. For example, my 25-year-old ligature is showing its age and I want to get a new one, so I start a thread. People recommend some good products, but others tell me I should keep the old lig and just practice more, which is ridiculous. I don't know how they want me to practice when my the welds on my ancient lig come completely undone. In any case, my thread has been hijacked, no matter by people using their own names or not, and the question may not get answered. On the other hand, it hasn't cost me anything.
Regards
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