 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Claire
Date: 2003-12-06 05:04
Does an amateur/self-taught clarinet player/musician have the moral right to openly critisize a professional/privately taught clarinet player/musician? Or is this even a valid question?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-06 05:27
What do you mean criticize? Is it constructive critizism? Is it simply your opinion on the matter? Are you at liberty to elaborate online aboiut the situation (to let us better advise you on what to/not to do)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-12-06 06:48
Sounds like a valid question to me.
If you offer a sincere opinion/critique, when it's asked for, it's as valid as anyone else's opinion. If you critisize because you feel you "have a moral right" to do it I doubt anyone will take you seriously for long, if at all. In fact they'll probably politely go out of their way to avoid you.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-06 12:03
It's called "putting one's foot in one's mouth".
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-12-06 14:48
Claire,
I agree with Ron's comments, especially the one on "moral right".
Aside from that, I don't see why a professional/privately taught player should be treated with more or less respect than a self-taught/amateur player. In the beginning, everyone was self-taught, including some of the greatest.
Hans
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-06 16:15
Prodigies, especially violinists, are often cultivated from such an early age (eg: 3) that they couldn't possibly get far on their own.
If you question a professional's status vis-à-vis semi-/non-/pre-/sub-professionals, you might want to check out the thread "Ever been defeated by a piece?" There are some self-described pros posting therein who do seem to assume a moral right to criticize sub-pros. Or at least a craft ethic so stringent that it has the force of morality.
Post Edited (2003-12-06 16:21)
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2003-12-06 21:15
Criticize? HMMMM......That's an opinion. Critique....that's another story. BUT...and its a BIG BUT....if you critique....you better be able to back it up.
Then again....why bother, other than to make yourself feel better?
Like the Beatles sang...."Let It Be"....
JG
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-12-07 18:30
I have as much moral right to criticise a pro clarinettist as I have to criticise a pro violinist, or a painter or architect or soccer player. The fact that I cannot play the violin, paint, design buildings or play soccer has nothing to do with it.
If we assume the contrary, then presumably the only people whom I could criticise would be those who share my profession. That would make life very boring.
I'm assuming here, of course, that the criticism involves a reasoned view politely expressed. I don't have the moral right to go up to a pro clarinettist and tell him that he's doing it all wrong and is a ****ing **** and should go back to college. But I don't think you meant that.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2003-12-07 19:39
Try this: I can't write like Shakespeare, but I can say that Titus Andronicus is not his best work, or I can say that it's an incoherent bloody mess if I want (for the record, I haven't read it). In a stratified world like music, it's easy to forget this. Of course it's your own business to avoid sounding like an idiot, which isn't something I'm very good at.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-07 22:48
Criticise, sure - go for it. If you pay good money and go to hear a concert and it's not up to scratch - tell 'em or ask for a refund (I've done it).
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-08 01:22
David Peacham wrote:
>> I'm assuming here, of course, that the criticism involves a reasoned view politely expressed. I don't have the moral right to go up to a pro clarinettist and tell him that he's doing it all wrong and is a ****ing **** and should go back to college. But I don't think you meant that. <<
But a pro has the right to do that to you. No?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-12-08 03:44
I would assume criticism only to come when asked. For instance, if someone asks you, "How do you think I did?" I find it perfectly acceptable to get the message across in a polite manner. "Well, I can tell you worked very hard and worked out those tough passages, but it lacked a certain energy in certain parts. Also, you could've made a few of those dynamic changes more dramatic."
If they don't ask, don't tell. Just like the military.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-08 08:32
What on Earth causes you to be concerned about that? One of the freedoms guaranteed in the US Constitution (see 9th amendment), frequently exercised by perhaps too many in this fine country, is the right to act like a complete fool. So, sure you can. Of course, as with a battery-acid gargle, just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*.
I'm not even a self-taught amateur President of the United States, but I have been known to criticize the President. And he knows much more about his job than I do. Needless to say, he really didn't seem to give a hoot about my opinion.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-08 11:59
Some of the world's most brilliant or successful people in their own particular field were/are largely self-taught. So I don't think that how one was taught is an issue, but a particular cultural setting may MAKE it an issue, perhaps because of perceived superiority of the formally taught... Snobbery is alive and well!
Presumably a professional is being paid. If I pay professional rates, I expect a pleasing quality of workmanship, no matter who I am, otherwise the professional is a con-man.
The work 'openly' suggests 'publicly' with the possibility of getting close to defamation.
"MORAL implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong" (Websters), and presumably depends on the precise cultural setting.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-12-08 12:14
paulwl - a pro clarinettist certainly has the right to tell me I'm doing it all wrong, though I'd hope he'd do so politely and constructively. I have no problem being criticised, it's an excellent way to learn.
I have had the experience of being told by an instructor, whom I was paying to teach me, that I had lost my ****ing rhythm. This would have been a little irritating if I had been playing music, but the context was that I had just fallen off a horse over a tricky jump, and would have liked slightly more sympathy.... Never mind, nothing broken, fabulous horse.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-08 13:08
I seem to remember a fine symphonic player in Edmonton who was self taught on the clarinet and was excellent....this is usually quite a rarity in the classical music field...
professional performers usually play at a standard that others try to emulate hopefully...either that or they get the pink slip!
Quite different from being an amateur and not having to worry about the money thing!!
David Dow
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-08 14:59
I've always found that a difference in opinion about a clarinet topic was an opportunity to learn something.
I would definitely go to the person - if I already knew them of course - and ask them about the situation. But the question would be carefully couched in expressions such as "You play so well and you impress me with your intonation / expression / etc.etc. (whatever's true and sincere), but I'm wondering about something: I heard this or that in your playing today. Is this because you faced a difficulty with fingering at that point? Is this a normal problem with the clarinet/reed? Or did the conductor demand a different timing this time?"
I find that if I ask things in a such a way that indicates that I'm the one who has something to learn then the answer invariably comes back in a respectful way. And usually the professional had a really good reason for doing what he did. If I still differ in opinion, I just thank the person and leave the subject alone and realize that artists of any stripe will see things differently. On this BB that's pretty obvious. In any case it's a learning experience.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-08 16:02
Perhaps my musings just before bedtime last night didn't get across. In case anyone cares, my point was that as anyone's professionalism becomes more elevated, immunity to improper criticism goes up also. That's one sign of a consummate professional: the ability to discriminate wheat from chaff in outside comments.
On the other hand... I heard a truly outstanding trumpet player last night. My only complaint could have been her slurring of one passage normally played rather staccato (as I prefer it). But I didn't mention that when congratulating her, and neither of us missed such a negative comment at all.
And beejay, it is correct that the first amendment to the US Constitution says, among other things, that you can speak as you please. But the ninth is the catchall that says just because something isn't specifically guaranteed in the Constitution doesn't mean it isn't protected. Reference to Amendment 1 is made so often, yet it mentions only speech. The ninth is the one that gives the first amendment teeth in areas of expression other than speech. For completeness, I should have mentioned both first and ninth
Regards,
John
official law school dropout
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Author: Claire
Date: 2003-12-09 06:16
Thank you all so very much for your opinions. I should go into a bit more detail on this. More specifically, does a person have the right to critisize you both in front of your face when it hasn't been asked for and when others are around you?
btw, I'm not American. lol
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-09 07:25
It depends on what you critisize and why. Also why you choose to pick a moment when there are other people around. As always when you want to critisize someone for whatever reason it's difficult to speak in general terms. It all depends on the situation. It seems like you're referring to something that happend to you recently. Be more specific.
Alphie
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-09 08:07
I'm mindful of the very professional and respected players with horribly distracting habits - the cellist who snorts while playing; the clarinetist who hisses air out the sides of his embouchure; the flutist who 'pecks' at his flute.....
It is perhaps true if they claim, "Nobody complains." If more 'amateurs' expressed what they thought of these habits, then certain professionals may do more to get rid of them. The perpetuation of the habit could be said to be the result of others being 'oh, so polite'.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-09 15:27
Check out the character of King Gama in Gilbert & Sullivan's operetta, Princess Ida. He always gives advice but everyone ends up thinking he is "such a disagreeable man", and he can never understand why.
But I would quite like some King Gama or other to tell Sabine Meyer that her tone is fabulous but to try to curtail her body movement. I have to shut my eyes when attending one of her performances, which is sad.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-09 15:30
Very interesting, in Europe students are told to move and express and in North America players are as still as lamp posts....
David Dow
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-09 16:02
D Dow wrote:
> in North America players are as still as lamp
> posts....
Oh really? You've not been to the concerts I've been to, then. I find excessive movement not to be limited by geography whatsoever - go to a Clarinetfest someday and tell me by body movement alone which country people are from ...
Someday I'm going to nail Bob Spring's feet to the floor and see if the nails or Bob give up first ...
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-09 17:13
Never seen Bob Spring play...its nice to know movement isn't entirely stamped out....I know that James Campbell moves a good deal,but thought he was an exception.
I have also seen the Chicago Symphony on TV doing a concert and was surprised at the stillness of the orchestra....
people have complained about my moving alot as well, but I don't take it personally.....
David Dow
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-09 17:36
Claire: Sorry, hadn';t understood that you were the recipient of the complaint. Perhaps offering lessons at a favorable fee would be an appropriate rejoinder. Or, as you are not American, would your culture permit you to challenge the offender to a duel?
Regards,
John
from America, where two of our six current banknote denominations bear portraits of duelists (one winner, one loser)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-09 17:59
The Duelist is an excellent John Wayne flick...or is it Shootist?
David Dow
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-12-09 18:36
JMcAuley wrote somewhere above:
"I'm not even a self-taught amateur President of the United States, but I have been known to criticize the President. And he knows much more about his job than I do. Needless to say, he really didn't seem to give a hoot about my opinion."
John, I think you are selling yourself short! Based on what I know about the two of you, I think you'd have a real chance of winning if you chose to run! After all, are you sure that your middle sentence is true?
Henry
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-09 19:25
Henry, I would not want that job for all the cinnamon in Sri Lanka. Anyway, GWB has been there, done that. But thanks for your vote! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Regards,
John
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2003-12-09 20:03
Claire --
Uh-oh, we're getting into politics, which means this thread is doomed. Before that happens, let me toss in my two (I hope, relevant) cents.
I agree with Alphie that context is important in determining an answer to your question. Based on your second posting, it sounds like this was criticism of a performer by a member of the audience at the performance, and that this was not a master class or other teaching/learning situation.
If that is the case, then I agree with ron b and sfalexi that the rules of etiquette apply, and those (unwritten) rules prohibit unsolicited advice/criticism in a situation such as this. The status of the people involved (amateur; professional; self-taught, etc.) is immaterial. Further, the person was doubly wrong to "offer" the criticism in front of others.
An analogy would be telling someone, "What a terrible haircut! Did you cut it yourself? Don't you have any style? If it were me, I'd do this . . . "
Of course, the difficult part is that etiquette also prohibits a rude response to a rude person, because it brings one down to their level. You are allowed to turn away without a response, or to say something like, "Thank you for your opinion, I'll give it the consideration it deserves."
Todd W.
Post Edited (2003-12-09 20:04)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-12-09 21:15
Or could the analogy be, "Excuse me for saying so, but there's some cream on your chin."
The difference here is that the stranger is pointing out a problem that the player is not aware of, but which the player perhaps would like to be aware of, for the benefit of his/her image (reputation).... or something along those lines.
If I was a professional making grunting sounds while playing, and was not aware of it, (or blissfully ignorant of a dark silver-reacting-with-make-up reaction on my lower lip, then I would be grateful for an amateur pointing this out, so that I could attend to it.
We really need the detailed specifics in order to reasonably discuss the situation.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-09 23:55
On a tour of the US a few years ago performing Mozart on original basset horns we had a strange criticism one evening. The persons opininon was that we sounded too good to be autentic. He was obviously very much against the use of autentic instruments in performance and was disapointed that it actually sounded better than he had expected.
I didn't quite know how to deal with this and felt both flattered and insulted at the same time. I think the person was only there to give criticism in one way or the other anyway and I just told him that I was sure that the people back then sounded even better at least stylistically since they were children of their time and we are just their humble echo. He was still not convinced.
Alphie
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