 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-06 03:32
I am hoping to play the Corigliano concerto within the next year. Does anyone know of a decent online recording or score preview so I can judge whether or not I can handle it? (I have heard it, but not for a while)
Another stupid question- how is his name pronounced? Is it how it is spelled, or differently? I will be ordering the music over the phone, and I hate mispronouncing things.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-06 12:42
I Classics may have only samples for you of recordings....Stoltzman has one which is I know of for sure on RCA records.
David Dow
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-12-06 16:07
Drucker has one.
I loved the Red Violin concerto....but the clarinet one sounds like warming up...yuck
Play the Rochberg instead
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-12-06 16:31
you can find it at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000030D2/qid=1070731580/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1973193-3876935?v=glance&s=classical
This is the amazon link for Drucker's recording. I love this recording and the piece. I think it is a must have for all clarinetists. Corigliano is a fabulous composer. Drucker's performance is amazing and the piece fits him like a glove.
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2003-12-06 16:32
Assuming you have spelled it correctly (as I believe) the 'gl' is a liquid sound (think of 'glissando'), in other words, no hard 'g' as in the English word 'rig'. So, Co-ri-gli-ano. Corigliano.
Hope that helps.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-12-07 01:12
Some years ago I was talking to Richard Stoltzman about this piece and he pronounced his name "Kor-lee-ahno". Now that still may not be right, but he's the only guy I have ever met who probably knows Mr. Corigliano.
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Author: Wonkak Kim
Date: 2003-12-07 01:43
This is probably one of the most difficult concertos written for clarinet. I like it very much and I think it has some real good ideas but I won't attempt to play this since it will take incredible amount of time to learn it. The cadenzas are very very difficult, and you need to be able to gliss in all registers like you breath. Even if you learn it with all the effort, it will be hard to find a chance to perform it. There is piano reduction, I believe, but it won't sound like the original (there are a lot of effects in this piece... like some of the orchestral horns, clarinets and maybe trumpets--I forgot are supposed to sit around the hall and echo as the orchestra plays). I talked to Stoltzman about this piece and he said this is a great piece to play live with orchestra, but doesnt really work without full setting.
I would recommand to you to try something else like Nielsen or Copland, if you really want some challenging concertos. They are not only much more playable (although you still need very good pianist or orchestra) but you can learn a lot of important musical ideas in them. Good luck.
-Won Kim
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-07 03:10
Thank you for the link. I have decided that my technique probably can handle the concerto. (That is so cool- a year ago I wouldn't even have thought of attempting it. I love it when I suddenly realise how much my playing has improved.)
Wonkak Kim- of course it is difficult. That is why I want to play it. I need a challenge. I am also going to play the Nielsen and Copland, because I think they are cool. At the moment I am doing Spohr 2 and Finzi, and they are fun, and really cool pieces, but I am simply not finding them difficult enough.
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2003-12-07 19:42
CPW- where did you hear the Red Violin Concerto? I head it in Philadelphia a few weeks ago. I liked it as well, though I was not blown away. The second movement seemed to have a strange lack of energy. I'm not sure if it was a compositional or performance thing.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-08 13:10
Try the Seven Brightness for Clarinet Alone by Maxwell Davies if you like a solo piece without orchestra for a challenge....the last page is pretty murderous without of course the longevity of the Corigliano...
David Dow
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-09 00:12
I just listened to a preview of it, and I think I might play that as well as the Corigliano, Copland and Nielsen concertos. I was actually going to ask about the solo or solo-with-piano repertoire. Do you have any other suggestions?
With the Seven Brightnesses- the clarinettist is doing something that sounds like string harmonics- what is that?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-09 15:33
Multiphonics...various books have fingering charts for this stuff...loads of fun!
David Dow
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-10 00:14
Rachel, what I would like to know is which piece you were defeated by in the other thread if you you can play this kind of repertoire with such ease?
Just curious.
Alphie
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-12-10 00:35
Not too be a voice of pessimism, but how many people on this board think they could actually pull of the Corigliano??? The piece is seriously difficult. It's not just a finger thing. The range and dynamics (especially in the second movement) require abilities possessed by only the very top clarinetist, I would presume.
Being able to fumble your way through a song with the minimal amount of proficiency is not the same as truly interpretting the piece with technical mastery! Clearly, I don't know how everyone plays, but I've encountered met a lot of clarinet players, none of whom I think could actually pull of this piece without devoting every waking minute of their days to it (actually, I met Stoltzman, but that's another story).
Get a good recording and let the pros handle this stuff. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but when should realism overcome idealism??
There are plenty of "lesser" pieces (and I use the word lesser to imply that they are viewed as lesser, not that they actually are) that will challenge you. Jus ask any college student how easy the Mozart is. Most people spend a lot of time on this one and can't perfect it. Same with Weber, Brahms, Stravinsky, and the rest. Learn whatever songs you want, but don't think you have to go to the extreme to get challenged (since it'll probably just end up frustrating you, or if nothing else, being a dead end since the performance opportunities on a piece like that are few and far between).
DH
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-12-10 16:44
"I am also going to play the Nielsen and Copland"......."I am doing Spohr 2 and Finzi, and they are fun, and really cool pieces, but I am simply not finding them difficult enough."
Well, you should add the Francaix in there and maybe as an encore, the Martino-Set for Clarinet!
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Author: Wonkak Kim
Date: 2003-12-10 19:00
Yea... as my teacher once told me "only crazy people will attempt to play it (corigliano)." This is not a joke. IMHO, I think playing a piece that is little beyond one's currunt ability could provide some good motivation. And I know Corigliano is not the case =).
-Won Kim
Post Edited (2003-12-10 19:32)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-10 20:41
Cool? As my brother says: "any time my teenage daughter says: "wow!!, that's cool" it means I open my wallet".
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-11 01:14
You people should realise that the more you tell me how difficult the concerto is, the more determined I will be to play it. Did it ever occur to you that part of the reason I want to play it is to extend my technique? I am aware of how horribly difficult it is.
I am not going to play the pieces all at once. I will probably get the Copland, then the Nielsen, then the Corigliano, with a break of a couple months in between.
I did not say that I could play my current repertoire "with ease". I said that I could play it without too much difficulty; there is a difference.
If you want to know what piece defeated me, read the thread. That was NOT indicative of my ability- it was mostly due to stress and the fact that I didn't really want to play the piece that much.
Ed- the Francaix doesn't really appeal that much to me.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-11 01:23
Regarding my "ever been defeated" thread- why do you think I was so frustrated? I was thinking "Ok, I can make an attempt at some of the most difficult works in the repertoire, but THIS is giving me trouble?!"
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-12-11 03:17
No reason to get offended...
I don't think the Corigliano is a good way to increase your technique in general. The passages are so un-scale like that the "technique" you gain from the Corigliano probably won't transfer to many other songs. The Francaix, Copland, and Nielsen are much better for increasing technique, I would say. If you want to attempt the Corigliano for the hell of it, then go ahead.
If our suggestions work only to further motivate you, then great! Perfect the piece and prove us wrong. I don't know your ability level personally, but I have met a lot of clarinet players... enough that I feel I can safely assume that very few could pull off the Corigliano. If you're one of the few who can, that's fantastic, but don't be surprised if you are encountered with skepticism.
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2003-12-11 13:08
The 'gli' is pronounced like a 'y' in English
Cor-eel-yahno is how I would write it - does that make sense?
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-12 01:18
I wasn't offended...just a bit annoyed. And tired from staying up until ridiculous hours the night before.
It probably won't improve my "scales-and-stuff-like-that" technique, but I have Klose for that. As well as the entire Classical-Romantic repertoire (which I need a break from; another reason to play something like this) I would like to also improve my technique on things that aren't scales etc.
The Corigliano is sort of like the ultimate challenge for me- if I can play it, I will be very pleased with myself.
Thanks for the pronounciation.
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Author: Wonkak Kim
Date: 2003-12-12 04:44
Rachel,
I just want to give you some advices. I think playing portion of those difficult pieces won't help you much. Copland, Nielsen and Francaix are very difficult pieces. If you are learning them for the first time, you will most likely spend more than a few months. I thought I could play everything if I practice when I was in high school. So like everyone else who I often met in all state orchestra/band or competitions, I practiced gliss in rhapsody in blue, nielsen cadenza and copland concerto. I realized that it was quite waste of time. I could have improved my fundamentals if I properly used those wasted time. Well at least I learned the notes so it wasn't a complete waste, yet I regret I didn't use my time well enough. When you establish a strong background, technique is not usually an issue. I would say expand the difficulty of your repertoir according to your gradual improvement of fundamental. If you have a private teacher (I am assuming you are a student or at least in that stage since you haven't yet played any of those concertos =)) he/she will tell you if you are ready to play. If you really want to challenge and think you are ready, set a goal and try to achieve one at a time. Learn the notes by yourself, get help on musical interpretation from instructors and take master classes with pro clarinetists. To learn this kind of concerto, you will have to struggle for years, not month, especially if you never played it. I think it's much better to learn and understand a music, rather than being able to play 90% of notes of Copland, Nielsen and Francaix.... Don't even mention Corigliano. Even very talented and highly acclaimed pro clarinetists and professors do not pull this often. It can be not only waste but give you negative influence. Good luck.
-Won Kim
Post Edited (2003-12-12 04:49)
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2003-12-12 10:11
Sorry guys, it's neither 'Cor Lee Yahno', nor 'cor eel yahno'. The syllabication is Co-ri-glia-no, 'Co (as the 'co' in 'co-opt'), ri (ree, as in 'reed'), glia (the gl' like 'lli' in 'million', articulated with the top of the tongue against the hard palate or the roof of the mouth), no (close to English 'no', but shorter 'o' sound). This is the Italian pronounciation, rather than an anglisized one. (I'm assuming the composer is Italian and not Italian-American).
Elizabeth
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2003-12-12 11:52
Elizabeth:
I think we're virtually in agreement about how to pronounce 'Corigliano.' I was trying to make it more phonetic but you're right - it's four syllables. The accent is on the third syllable. It's not 'Cor-lee-ah-no' any more than 'nuclear' should be pronounced 'nucular.'
John Corigliano Jr. was born in Brooklyn, NY. His father, John Corigliano Sr. was the concertmaster of the New York Philharmonic. I don't know whether JC Sr. was born in the US or in Italy.
Steve
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-12 11:56
justwannaplay wrote:
> This is the Italian
> pronounciation, rather than an anglisized one. (I'm assuming
> the composer is Italian and not Italian-American).
Sorry Elizabeth, your're wrong on both counts (pronounciation and nationality).
John Corigliano is American and pronounces his own name as given in http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0813546.html, first phonetic, which is very close to the ones above - the only reason I looked up that link is that it is a little bit more accurate. He did not use the second phonetic - I am sure of it as I've had a drink with him in the past and asked him personally how to pronounce his name.
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2003-12-12 13:12
"Sorry Elizabeth, your're wrong on both counts (pronounciation and nationality)."
Well, I did say that I was assuming he was an Italian national, as I'm not familiar with the composer. The phonetic pronunciations given on that site are not correct pronunciations in Italian. They are anglisized versions, and if Corigliano pronounces his name as the first phonetic version, fine, and that's how Rachel should pronounce it if she is to order his work in the US.
I hope I should know something about Italian pronunciation as I have a doctorate in Italian Studies and am Italian-American as well. I prefer to pronounce my name with Italian pronunciation, but when in the States I sometimes use a more anglisized pronunciation.
Post Edited (2003-12-12 13:24)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-12 14:42
justwannaplay wrote:
> Well, I did say that I was assuming he was an Italian national,
> as I'm not familiar with the composer.
Probably a bad idea to assume nationalities based on name alone. One might think I'm French, even though my current surname barely resembles the one used by my ancestors when they emigrated to Montreal over 350 years ago.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-13 01:51
Wonkak Kim: advice noted. I am still going to play the concerto.
When I said "with a couple of months in between", I didn't mean that I thought I would have them perfect in that time. I meant just to get a good idea of how they sound, what difficulties there are, and stuff like that.
I don't really care how long it takes to learn it. I am not having lessons at the moment, so I can pretty well please myself with what I am doing on the clarinet. If I want to take a few years to learn a piece, I can.
Mark Charette- THANK YOU for that pronounciation. I love you.
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Author: clarinetmajr
Date: 2003-12-13 04:14
Rachel I really admire your attitude, sincerely. I think you should go for it! I went to a masterclass by Richard Stoltzman (i know he isn't everyones favorite player here but oh well) and he said something along the lines of "once you realize that you want to dedicate your life to music, you realize that there are no deadlines." Sort saying that you don't have to worry about "finishing this by the end of highschool" or such and such... but you have your entire life to refine your musical skills and enjoy making music. So you have plenty of time, and no better time than to start! Good luck and have fun! ( :
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2009-09-29 03:19
I just came across this. I guess I am crazy, I worked on it, and got it playable back in about 1980. When I was a college student.
Had chance to work with Drucker on it, and that was a motivating factor to learn it... a once in a lifetime chance to work on a piece with person for whom it was composed...and when I was young person he did not discourage my attempts at all, nor call me crazy. He said that he used to do things like that when he was young also. And with time, I was able to make sense of it all.
Of course, it would also be difficult to teach a student if one had never worked on it themselves; so maybe it seems crazy to one that has not attempted to climb the mountain, so to speak.
However, despite all claims of craziness, I have yet to be officially committed...nor have I seen playing that concerto a requirement for committment...so I would question that allegation :-)
Remember, the techniques were based on Drucker's fortes; so one never knows who else may have similar fortes...so while it may be impossible for one, it may play to the talents of another and in fact seem easy. I am not claiming I am one of those, just raising a point. The techniques represent things like whispering, and sirens, and it really is quite interesting musically to work through it.
I disagree, I think if someone wants to go for it, there is value to be gained in learning it. Or even working on portions of it to develop new flexibility in technique. Not every piece worked on is necessarily worked to performance level either. Nor do we get to perform every piece that we do work to that level. Remember, once we leave the protection of the school environment, there is no purpose for us to be "provided" performance opportunities "just because" we play. It becomes more of finding the opportunity to play pieces others select for us. So does this mean to not grow our repretoire? I think not, especially now when music scores are readially available for free online! When I was in school, I could not afford many works because I had to pay for each, so often my rep matched funds for that semester.
Sometimes, we forget, especially as students in school, that music is a creative endeavor, and if we don't sometimes take advantage of that, we are missing an opportunity.Often school, in its effort to teach technique, pushes out our creativity and actually can stifle a creative spirit. This is a necessity of the educational institution and requirements.
You are correct in that there was never an opportunity to really perform it because it was such a difficult orchestra part. At that time, there was no piano reduction so I learned from the score. Nor is it EASY to listen to. Also, I did make an arrangement of slow movement for clarinet and organ that worked out nicely and was playable.
My biggest personal complaint about it was that it was extremely fatiguing to play, there was no possible way to play through it completely, more than one time. At least for me, physically and mentally tiring.
I think the experience did allow me more freedom and variety in my technique, not to mention most everything else was seemed easy in comparison. This is what I was seeking at the time.
Now, a number of years have passed, and I have to say, it was well worth the experience, and I would not call it wasted time. Then again, I see young people attempted much music that IS well beyond their abilities at the time. This is fine, if they realize that there is still room to grow and that they continue to grow that work over time. There is never an end to our growth. As we age, I believe we listen for different aspects of music also, so our emphisis may change over time. Things that used to challenge us becomes routine so we can do more with that because there is less to worry about.
There is always some aspect of music that we can learn more about. Today, I am incorporating new computer technology to expand performance and recording opportunities that were only a dream back when I was learning that concerto. Not through computer effects but by expanding on traditional techniques. I can now have an orchestra at my fingertips...back then the closest thing was a Moog synth! Now I can hear music as I compose it. Then right then print out a full score! I can play any piece with an orchestra while practicing. All just barely imaginable back in those days. I can record in my own studio. I can select a mouthpiece based on compositon much like we used to just choose a reed. So we all just need to keep learning and growing and keeping an open mind.
I certainly hope that everyone that wants to attempt to climb this musical mountain or any others will take the opportunity to do so, and disregard what "they" say. I have found many of the "they" are now either dead or if alive otherwise no longer play clarinet...hmmm....maybe for those they quit because their creativity got lost in the process? They lost their purpose. After all, over the years, it IS difficult to maintain and to continue to grow. But as one gets better, the potential also grows, and what can be done is far greater. Too bad traditional music ventues are shrinking , but on other hand, the changes in the music industry have opened up new opportunities like few times in the past, if we take advantage.
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Author: pears
Date: 2009-09-29 03:28
I am looking the same thing like you, Rachel.I was about to start my training sessions by next week, as my friend helped me to find someone to practice me with playing Corigliano concerto. I would like to achieve something within a month, and suppose to play this on my friend's birthday. I'm excited to go on to this.
Good Luck to you!
best regards,
Pears
attacking anxiety
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-09-29 03:51
pears wrote:
> I am looking the same thing like you, Rachel.
Just to remind you -
The original posting on this thread by Rachel was about 6 years ago.
...GBK
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Author: ClaireAnnette
Date: 2009-09-29 04:11
So if he time travels back six years, he has a month and six years to learn this! Honestly though, it took me a lot longer than a month!!! But go for it! Yes, I was commenting on the timeless but general issue of discouraging people from attempting works that may seem too difficult.
As mentioned, I just came across this today, even though an old post; have been otherwise occuppied to read the board, but this I was inclined to comment. Thanks.
Maybe Rachel is still around to tell us how it went now that six years have gone by!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-09-29 11:48
I heard a recording by Swedish Clarinetist Emil Jonason performing it for his Soloist Diploma Concert with the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic and it's one of the very best recordings/performances I've ever heard of it.
It's Drucker's piece, and he's the best of the best for it, but this one was close, really close.
I've got probably 8 or 9 different recordings of the Corigliano from Combs, Zukovsky that I produced, several Drucker, Stoltzman.
I'd like to hear Neidich do it
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Adam W
Date: 2009-09-29 13:21
Mr. Blumberg,
I knew that Larry Combs performed the Corigliano, but I didn't know that he recorded it! Could you possibly point me in the right direction to finding it? I would be most grateful.
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Author: Adam W
Date: 2009-09-29 21:00
Ahh, I see.
It really is too bad that Larry Combs never comercially recorded the Corigliano... He certainly is one of the best clarinetists in the world playing one of our best concertos.
I guess for now I'm just "stuck" listening to my recordings of the work by Drucker, Zukovsky, Collins, and Stoltzman...
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-29 21:31
For me, Drucker and Zukovsky are in a dead heat. Both are amazing.
Ken Shaw
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Author: brycon
Date: 2009-09-29 22:16
Corigliano told me that he enjoys each recording of the concerto- for different reasons of course. I really can't pick a "best" recording out of the ones available, they are all brilliant in their own ways. I also have a minidisc recording of Charles Neidich playing excerpts from the concerto- wonderful playing as always.
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Author: Adam W
Date: 2009-09-30 05:07
FWIW, Martin Fröst has it listed as a part of his personal repertoire; it wouldn't be too outlandish to hope for him to release a recording of this work in the not too distant future...
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